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The Expanded Class Discussion Thread - Flapjack - 09-10-2009
One of my first ever posts was a rant.
LOL, yeah, a rant. But it wasn't just a simple rant. I'm quite disappointed at how low on items the Expanded Classes were. (Gunslingers, Ninja, Taekwon Masters/ Star Gladiators and Soul Linkers; Jiangshi and Death Knights are unreleased. Shamans and Dark Knights are a RODS exclusive.)The problem facing by these classes are being underwhelmed, equip-wise and stat-wise. Gunslingers can dish out decent damage but are nerfed by long cast times and frail defense. Soul Linkers' transition period is the worst for any class. Ninja's array of skills are too biased on one skill tree (the Throwing skills aren't useful in any situation). I can't say anything much about Taekwon Masters since they're a bit decent (but don't take my word for it
)This is the reason why I opened this thread. I just want to start a discussion on what the Expanded Classes lack to be as good as the First Six Classes and the ways (adjustments and such) on which it can be addressed. Feel free to vent out your concerns on the Expanded Classes too.
RE: The Expanded Class Discussion Thread - Spawn - 09-10-2009
You havent noticed? SinX have EDP/SBK , Stalker Tank like hell and FS everything, CT for WS and ADs for Crea, Clown/Gypsy have AV/Tarot, Snipers have FA/DS/Sharp Shoot, LK berserk/spiral pierce, Pal Sacri/Shield Chain, HP do their job and Champs azura, and i wont even get to the mage class
They all have something to Work with, what do ninjas have? lightning spear of ice? bouhou im so scared...Gunners? Full buster can be good..kinda...Taeks, as long as they arent ranked, are pretty much useless..and even once ranked they are easily tankable, SL is the most decent extended class but only on a support type build, and SG arent all that great exept for sucking SP out of everyone...
honnestly Gravity should give them something to fight with something better than what they have. If they cant tank crap then let them kill fast, and if they cant kill give them something to tank, let it be augmented HP multiplier or more possibilities for defence equips.
That of course is my humble opinion ^_^
RE: The Expanded Class Discussion Thread - Nidsrule - 09-10-2009
Why do people refer to extended classes and trans classes as if they should be on the same level? Extended classes were never meant to be at the same or even a similar level to the classes you have listed. Of the 4 extended classes, ninjas and gunslingers are nothing but a gimmick. They have very limited applications in WoE/PvP and are outclassed by trans classes in all aspects of PvM/MvPing. Think of them as the poor mans trans class, for people who don't want to level a character to 99 only to have to start over again.
Then we have soul linkers and taekwon masters; taekwon rankers can be grouped with ninjas and gunslingers. Soul linkers and TKMs on the other hand each added a lot to the game when they were implemented. While it may not be as obvious on heRO, especially in terms of TKMs, on official servers (iRO especially) TKMs are the most abusable source of exp in the game. Then we have soul linkers, which have a large number of buffs which have affected various aspects of gameplay; from links affecting WoE/PvP predominately, to buffs like eske, which has had a huge effect on high end MvPing. Both soul linkers and TKMs have come under continued debate about just how much their implementation has affected the game for the worse, whether it be the easy mode leveling offered by TKM leeching in places like thors to the arguably game breaking mechanics of some of the soul linker buffs (assassin link being the main buff that comes up in such debates).
tl;dr
Extended classes were meant to be between non trans and trans chars in terms of power. Compared to trans classes ninjas and gunslingers seem like a half complete concept, while TKMs and soul linkers have had a huge impact on the game, with some of their skills arguably being overpowered.
RE: The Expanded Class Discussion Thread - GM-Ayu - 09-10-2009
Nidsrule Wrote:Why do people refer to extended classes and trans classes as if they should be on the same level?
I don't think that it's unreasonable for players to expect that when a class is made, it should at least be unique (even if it's overshadowed in efficiency.) What we lack for ninja and gunslinger, is that they are almost exactly identical to an existing class.
Gunslinger is just a mix of hunter path with bard/dancer path without the support. You do long range, you can sort of mob but you got no stats for it. You got a giant single damage attack similar to arrow vulcan, but it's not as good as arrow vulcan (understandably for reasons you mention: they did not have to go through another lv 99 progress.) You have the mines and spheres, similar to hunter's traps but nothing special. You have a few buffs that boost dex and attack speed, and that's also exactly like attention concentrate, and the ASPD part is so minor. The multiple different "branches" of development exist in theory with the different type of guns, but lack of usable moves to really choose or develop from them.
Not only are they lacking in efficiency, they lack even originality.
Ninja isn't as bad as technically they have diverse development with melee and spell casting. Main build is the caster setup, which by then you're a sage without the supportive skills/status skills but got increased survivability. You do single target spells, a few area land elemental effect, and you have a few small AoE that's nowhere near wizard. Melee is more bland as it's just % modifier attacks, sadly coupled with really specific requirements. The attack % modifier, doesn't justify the specific requirements though, so you can't really classify ninja's melee path to be "strong damage with trade-offs" type of approach either. Ranged melee, outclassed by even gunslingers and of course hunters with drawbacks, while being nothing special (ammo isn't even elemental, or status carrying). Ninja melee 'should' be special because almost all of their weapon has innate status or special effects, but sadly most of them can be done by other classes too through carding a 4 slot weapon, and do it even better. Or, the effect isn't significant to worth anything (Hakujin? lol? Maybe lv 7 heal, then we are talking...)
Ninja's unique part is that they do have exclusive style of damage evasion skills. No other spells can block a certain type of attack with definite 100% success except Kaupe (which only last 1 attack), and ninjas can use the appropriate one (in theory) depending on what they are up against. This makes them slightly better than Gunslingers in a development point of view.
Nidsrule already covered why TKM and SL stand far above the others. They are extremely unique in their skills to be map dependent with the power to back it up, or dependent on the target ally's class for different effects in soul link. SL got an elemental changing single target magic, including rare holy and shadow elemental magic, which is again unique. SL's debuff is unique.
Normal Taekwon and ranker have a unique system giving a suitable reward, and I think that Ranker isn't completely outshadowed in PvM, due to the relative ease to stun a lot of the new monster creation (vit 30 or lower almost exclusively), and Ranker got one of the most reliable combos of moves to deal fair damage with stun chances at the same time. Taekwon is mostly lacking in good equipment, which is what keeps them in check (admitted a bit boring as it's easy to complete their equipments arsenal so easy to reach "end of the character" path) to be below trans class but above non-trans. Stance, as much as you may hate it and do everything to be a ranker to get rid of it, is 'unique' in skills to be different from other classes from development point of view. Flying Side Kick remains influencial, and solves the problem of even the trans class in PvM how melee got problems "reaching" the ranged monsters. Nidsrule already covered the PvP aspect.
Extended class of Ninja and Gunslinger are not only overshadowed in power, but even overshadowed in originality of development. Nothing is unique about them. Their problem runs deep down to the core- simply an unplayable class. You can argue that a player do well with these 2 classes too, but I bet that the same user of those 2 classes will do *even better* if that player is playing another class. I don't think that the problems of ninjas and gunsligners is something just making new custom equipment can honestly fix.
RE: The Expanded Class Discussion Thread - Flapjack - 09-13-2009
*Ugh, methinks this is a fail thread after the lack of people posting.*
RE: The Expanded Class Discussion Thread - Landon - 09-14-2009
Let SL use its skills in pvp, instant pwnage
RE: The Expanded Class Discussion Thread - Galt - 09-14-2009
Gunslinger (at least in my mind), leaves a lot to be desired...
RE: The Expanded Class Discussion Thread - mahawirasd - 09-14-2009
Not always landon... Mdef is really the wall for SLs...
best thing they can get AFAIK is a 4x ignore rod... nothing close to a SoP...
-w-
RE: The Expanded Class Discussion Thread - Fyrus Carmin - 09-15-2009
Yet they could chain their Esma like hell, and annoy a lot of people with their Es-skills.
RE: The Expanded Class Discussion Thread - GM-Ayu - 09-15-2009
Or just use eswoo and you're basically out of the battle for 30 seconds, and you can't even cure it. Estun spam do the "spell lock job" better than ninja does now, and esma with awkward elementals make it hard to block given how it's so chainable. You really screw up with balance even more if es-skills works with players.