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+--- Thread: Add WSS to Bee wing! (/showthread.php?tid=22770)
RE: Add WSS to Bee wing! - azurerogue - 12-27-2012
I think we should add Taekwon Ranker Points as a drop from bee wings, too, then! Bee wings are biased against Taekwon Rankers!!
If you disagree with me I'll quote snippets of a number of posts and write nearly incomprehensible responses until you give up out of frustration so then it will appear that I've "won" on the internet. A true victory!
RE: Add WSS to Bee wing! - GM-Rahice - 12-27-2012
I'd like to know how I skimmed through and left out the "Bias Nature of Leaving WSS out of Bee Wings"
Pretty sure I said what I thought about it. Why don't you go re-read what I said and be sure to not 'skim' through it? The answer is the very first thing I said.
**
Oh, forgot one other thing. I also made a point as to why I thought it wasn't a good idea. It's not a bias nature at all, it's called an opinion. If you don't like it, don't read.
RE: Add WSS to Bee wing! - Seth~ - 12-27-2012
@azurerogue whut Taekwon Ranker Points as a drop from bee wings. Is that even a item. Whatever man. If it floats your boat. Back to lack of responses on bias. I am just gona drop the quote it takes time.
Copy Paste machine:
-bee wings was most likely added to ease the pressure of farming for items that helps. However without wss it is biased since it would not be so game breaking. Since its a slight change in prices is acceptable - related to wss
-Lazy 2.0 discussion. We do farm them, more would be fair compared to other items in bee wings since it uses much more items in comparison.
-kill more bathory i do/many do, whats this wss slavery, if bathory would drop 2 instead of 1 wss that would nullify the need for bee wings. Since the lack of wss in bee wings is unfair.
-So its flawed to say ohh noes bathory card will spike price wise. It probably will go up slightly and not go up beyond 20m-aka that would be unsustainable. Many ppl agree with the stand point that the price will only slightly fluctuate if wss where to be included in bee wings. Aka bee wings without wss is unfair.
-yes it drops from many monsters - only 3 are reasonably advantageous to farm. Lemme go copy and paste.
Demon Pungus - drops a sucky card, and punk his minion too
punk drops @ii 2502. This is a good map in comparison to the bathory map.seeker - Hodremlin has nice drop chances and cards probably however it requires a access quest. + only Hodremlin of the two has numerous monsters in that map however it has a lower drop chance.
But I missed something....ahh they drop one wss. Not 2 not even 3 only 1. ??
Now lets compares this to other items in bee wings since a GM made an appearance (we must respect our GM's).
Blue Gemstone - that you can buy from npc you by being in the bee wings it prevents a zeny zink.
Alcohol - drops from 7 monsters in rms and probably more in heRO, wws only 3
Bee Sting - drops from 2 monsters at 100% chance in our server. + there is lots of those monsters in 2 maps wss has lots of monsters in 3 maps.
Cheese - omg zeny generation item.
Cobweb - also drops from 2 monsters - but omg its a rare monster.
Darkness Rune - zeny generation i think.
Empty Bottle - ohh yah victory dance another creator item, however any creator should know you can farm Empty Bottle and cultivate for pp & karvo at ant hell 2 kills once spot.
Green Live - see see even arrow generation is made easy for archers. But not wss.
Immortal Heart & Karvodainirol - the most bee wing game breaking items on the list.
xd should I go on? Most other classes has most items covered in bee wings to my knowledge(hey I made a creator 2nd and never looked back, until recently) however the class with the most items used for skills has the smallest share of the pie. aka unfair - bias.
The problem with farming wss from monsters. Hey they drop 1 at a time but verit can now drop 2 at a time. aka wss not in bee wings aka unfair. But oh so many zeny generation items was added and even a item that sells from a npc.??
GM-Rahice Wrote:I don't think that adding WSS to be wings would actually assist in any form to a Zeny Sink. Which was the original idea behind this whole ordeal, wasn't it? I lost track by now.not even a referral to bais
My personal opinion? With the droprate of other items on there that you don't even need, and with the fact people can hunt WSS themselves already and get an item from Bee Wings on top of that. People that don't need the WSS and hunt it can sell it, people that get items they don't want from Bee Wings can still collect and sell it. So, I say don't add WSS to Bee Wings.
Do I personally have my own brewer? No, I would like to eventually get one, and I know the ranking will be a nice pain in the butt, but it's a challenge. Just like hunting MVP cards. The people that are brewing still, will eventually remove the Rankers without need.
Even if the GM's were to do something to the Rankings, why would it be fair to only do something to /alchemist? What about /blacksmith?
Forger's don't get extra drops through Bee Wings. Brewers and Sinx's already do.
Bee Wings are fine the way they are.
Anyways back to what suppream GM-Rahice said. Zeny Sink its questionable ok that is a given. Back to the previous part of the current post items like blue gemstone was removed from a zeny zink formulation. aka zeny zink did not matter to GM's at the time of the blue gemstone insertion.
Your personal opinion is valid, I like it you made a GM stance. Now lets see oh yah wss uses much more items in comparison to other items in bee wings. aka the drop rate from monsters is pretty fine considering they drop 1 at a time where you can buy blue gemstone from a npc or get 2 ih from one verit. aka saying its fine as is is unfair and biased by nature.??
I doubt that ppl hunt wss for long unless they brew aka more need for wss from bee wings. If you claim other wise now lets see its called a new invention dg you can afk practically and get the exp to trans. So the requirement for wss maps for exp is baseless. Heck i'd even advise new ppl get get party ready as soon as possible since you now get more exp from parties too. + DG since wss maps are hard to get and filled with scary mini bosses and/or drops crappy items.
the /alchemist ranking would always be a pain for everyone in there and less so for 1st since they have guild & god items aka unbeatable.
adjusting the /alchemist or /blacksmith or nobility ranking would be unfair. Totally agree with you on that. But why punish wss with it exclusion?
Really how sad that forgers do not get extra drops from bee wings. However wss is not in mining right? but all(i think) of the forger items is in mining.
Finally bee wings without wss is unfair, biased, unjust.
next post: you did not mention anything regarding the long list of: why leaving wss out of bee wings is not biased.
I got why its not a good idea, but then please elaborate why blue gemstones, immortal heart, and karvos, is in bee wings. Since this inclusion is clearly balanced and wss exclusion is not balanced. godly GM your argument does not deal with the fundamental issues of why the exclusion of wss from bee wings is fair, just, unbiased and the right thing since bee wings is there and all.??
RE: Add WSS to Bee wing! - Seth~ - 12-27-2012
sleep xd back tomorrow. dam this uses a lot of time better spent on wss farming. Sorry about bad grammar i need sleep. I hope I did not offend our first Godly GM on this tread.
final word wss not in bee wings is unfair, bias, unjust, maybe sadistic. for reasoning read previous post.
zzz...zzz...zzz....zzz.zzzzzz.
RE: Add WSS to Bee wing! - GM-Rahice - 12-27-2012
I'm really starting to wonder what your real angle in the situation is, because you're really running yourself in a circle chasing your own tail. All I can see from your posts are "I want WSS in bee wings and nothing else matters."
The fact that I posted this on my GM account doesn't mean I have a GM 'stance' as it was stated as my personal opinion. Doesn't mean the entire GM team believes the same thing.
If you want to bring in mining, why not throw in fishing and oh yeah. Alchemists fish and mine too, for extra things to sell and or use. So, just how are Alchemists being given such an eternal hardship.
Are you saying that you as a Brewer, would prefer to not have Stems, Immortal Heart and whatever other items an Alchemist might consume for Brewing and or use for selling to get items to Brew with; to NOT be offered in Bee Wings, because you aren't getting the support you want with WSS?
Since when did my personal opinion say that you would or wouldn't get WSS in the first place? It must be a crime for a GM to state their mind as a normal person.
There are probably other things people could find useful dropped from Bee Wings. It isn't as if you are being singled out and told there's not going to be any help to your class at all.
I never made a comment about why any of those items were included, overall. Bee Wings were created with items added to help people out, not get screamed at for everything that people wanted included. It's ungrateful to complain that much about something.
I don't see why Blue Gemstones are in it, since they are easy to get and npcable. I would -assume- that Immortal Heart was put in, you know maybe to help Brewers like You. Karvo's have a low drop rate, but might have been put in to help Sinx's.. Why does this seem familiar? I said it in a previous post.
I'm still a person, whether or not I am a GM, I still have an opinion.
RE: Add WSS to Bee wing! - Aaronock - 12-27-2012
Honestly I am all for lowering the drop rates a little on bee wing items.
I mean I complained originally about the crappy drop rate when the wings were first released, but now with the ability to get many items at or near 100% after each kill is just as much of a problem. But yah, before it was better to wear a backpack or Rudolph nose in the lower slot for their drops than to wear bee wings.
I consider myself a farmer, and enjoy killing monsters for their drops. Bee wings were to me to be a secondary means of getting certain items, and never meant to be the main way to obtain them.
Standing by that point above, I can have little desire for adding them to bee wings, and would rather focus on fixing the drop rate on other items to fit that goal.
Of course, if what I desired happened, and the formulas tweaked appropriately, then I'd be pretty cool with starsands being added. As the wings are currently, no way. The GM team overall has steered the server away from being too casual. They obviously want us to work for some things.
RE:??Add WSS to Bee wing! - Ellie - 12-27-2012
Aaronock Wrote:?Bee wings were to me to be a secondary means of getting certain items, and never meant to be the main way to obtain them.
Billion times this.
They were intended to supplement farming/leveling sessions - not merge them all into one single session to get everything. >>
RE: ??Add WSS to Bee wing! - mahawirasd - 12-28-2012
Ellie Wrote:Aaronock Wrote:?Bee wings were to me to be a secondary means of getting certain items, and never meant to be the main way to obtain them.
Billion times this.
They were intended to supplement farming/leveling sessions - not merge them all into one single session to get everything. >>
like the last 6 pages, it still doesn't answer why other brewing items are included while WSS is not.
http://www.pandoraonline.net/heRO_wiki/index.php?title=Bee_Wings
if i may ask, what was the logic for the addition of ad and edp mats in the first place?
the addition of cooking and forging mats makes sense to me (to incentivise cooking and forging - which seems to pale compared to the brewing table), i can also understand to some extent the gemstones and cobweb.
But why then was ad and edp mats added? To make things easier for pvp/woe-ers? One could contend that ad and edp becoming easier to farm does so much more (especially ad) for pvm-ers than woe/pvp-ers.
Furthermore, if the reasoning behind it WAS the former, then i could also surmise that adding WSS would ALSO make it easier for pvp/woe-ers.
Subsequently, i believe that making c whites more "accessible" would temper the fish economy and make for a more complex Benefit-Cost-Ratio analysis which i believe opens up the possibility of veering people away from mining for fish to actually hunting stuff.
W
RE: Add WSS to Bee wing! - Seth~ - 12-28-2012
@GM-Rahice omg so sorry a GM misunderstood so sorry. Yes I know this was probably a annoyance that the GM team left alone thus far. I more like meant that a GM made a post of his/her opinion.
About mining. So you agree the lack of wss elsewhere is bias basically. Seth Score! Why do you want to drag fishing in does it drop items used by skills as consumables. Since this would prove my point. If not I was under the impression that it drops consumables for healing of sp and hp aka a replacement for brewing. Whats the problem there? It was like this before so accepted.
Alchemist get eternal hardship for not having blue potions in a twilight list but otherwise. Where did I say anything about hardship related to brewing.
Ok you attack bee wing items for creator/alchemist skills but you avoid karvo and blue gemstone, that is bias on print.
I guess it is a crime if you decide to make it a crime due to your personal opinion that is somehow in conflict with your morals. xD. Everybody is entitles to free-speech. I am saying that currently your replies is more bias than unbiased, since you side with your opinion. Which is fine but you are in a position of authority thus all opinions would be better kept where they can not referred to as bias. But this happens a lot everywhere, hey your shooting the messenger. You are supposed to be silent unless you are supposed to be unbiased. aka why no gm reply before you was acceptable.
About help for other classes from bee wings by all means as long as you see that wss exclusion from bee wings is bias by nature.??
Ahh you see blue gemstone. xD. So assuming you guys did not discuss this blue gemstone you basically say that blue gemstone is important even npc buyable but wss is oversupplied aka unbais. That there is bias. Like a song oops I did it again, you saying please do not blame me. But wss its a great and unbiased idea to leave it out, yet you did not counter all/most of my bias related arguments (hey i am running around in circles yah i know, buts its your race).
I do not get why most extensive choice range for bee wings is not implemented in the first place, but again. You attack wss exclusion on the basis that other items is also excluded aka bias.
I am grateful for bee wings in storage - eternally grateful - I am just saying hey you left out wss, other items too but my particular problem is wss.
About ih it is nice to have it, but not used it yet mine is stuck on alcohol. Yes I know you put it it to be more fair and all. That is commendable. You left out the part where karvo was added with a big oopsie in the beginning. Hey its fine as is but my main point there is those items are used for attack skills. wss is not used for attack skills but the generation of healing items. Its exclusion is bias.??
You claim I am running around in circles. I guess. But you/other do not dare to answer the fundamental questions of why wss exclusion is fair and unbiased. I guess that means you guys agree its exclusion is bias and unfair.
Again you safeguard your opinion, its a free-speech act I would defend that. However pointing your opinion out on such a public format is bias. Since it basically sways public opinion towards the GM's favour (not that i needs more swaying since most ppl who care voted for not adding it). As I understand it, GM's must be a symbol of unbiased comments and actions.
Now lastly I've addressed your comments yet you avoid saying why the exclusion of wss from bee wings is not biased aka fair and just. aka you tried to address the easy ones since the hard ones you agree with me in the first place???
@Aaronock how you should give our GM classes about unbiased comments in public. Yes I respect his opinion just not in public. Anyways yes the formula was crappy moves was made towards fixing it. Saying it should be added when the formula is fix is a symbol of ..... Aaronock for GM.
@Ellie Hi. I think its impossible to merge them all into a single session to get everything. Hey I think I agree with you. xd.
@other ppl that posted in the short term no counter argument aka score.??Lack of reply obviously means that you agree with me. aka It is bias to leave wss out of bee wings.
@mahawirasd I missed your post, but I can agree to that too.
RE: Add WSS to Bee wing! - Merellis - 12-28-2012
Definition of bias
noun
1 [mass noun] inclination or prejudice for or against one person or group, especially in a way considered to be unfair.
I do not see where those who disagree with you are being unfair or showing prejudice. They have shown, time and time again, particular and good reasoning as to why they shouldn't be added, ranging from the fact that they drop at 100%, to the fact that they can be farmed with ease, to the fact that the prices really don't matter when you can just run out and get some. We have given sound reasoning and proofs as to why they do not need to be added, if anyone is showing bias it is you.
You've spent most of this thread jumping from one point to the next and even back to others as we've systematically showed you why each of those points were faulty. We've addressed your concerns about the Alchemist List. About God Items, which if you remember correctly, where Albus even gave you a break down of the percentages difference between the high end gear you can hunt versus the few God Items that even help with brewing, the difference is less than 5, meaning you can get comparable numbers with just the high end gears.
You have also been taking the things we've said and been heavily misunderstanding or just outright ignoring them, along with stating things that simply aren't true just to further your agenda.
No one has said that Bathory Card will spike in price, no one believes that you need a Bathory Card to farm Bathory's, we all know they drop at 100% so don't put 50% and then say to ignore that the server has three times the drop rate. Most monsters only drop one of the same item, which is how it's been since before the Bee Wings so I don't even see how that crap serves as an argument.
Using a champ to farm Demon Pungus is a silly thing considering you can't one-shot them as a Champ without really outrageous gear or Asura's.
Witched Starsands are not used in a ton of items, they're used in ONE, count it with me now, ONE item. So this argument doesn't work either, along with the lack of supply in vendors, and the pricing of them. None of those arguments work.
Want to know why?
100% drop rate, easy to kill monsters, maps with a high amount of them.
If getting a God Item is a long term project of yours, then you should get a Guild going now and get them ready to WoE. The longer you take in starting, the longer it's gonna take to get the ingredients to create the damn thing. Especially given the tendency to break eco, for people to lose castles, the random chance of even getting an item component and other variables.
Also, you dare assume that one day of no posting means I suddenly concede my argument? That is such bullshit reasoning I don't even know what to say beyond calling it bullshit reasoning.
And Seth, Albus was being sarcastic and also pointing out that the very reasoning you've attempted to use can work with nearly any item that exists, along with points that you can gain, along with Exp, along with zeny.
Seriously, lets play ad-lib
Quote:I think we should add (INSERT ITEM/POINT HERE) as a drop from bee wings, too, then! Bee wings are biased against (INSERT GROUP THAT IS BEING TREATED UNFAIRLY)!!
You can use any damn thing on a server and make this argument. It's a useless point that you've been trying to make, and crying bias when others show you how it simply isn't true is just ignoring the facts.
Hell crying bias when there is no true bias is also just ignoring the facts.
In conclusion, there is no bias, there is no reason to add them to Bee Wings, they're easy to farm and can be accumulated at a frightening speed, all of your arguments have been countered, all of your assumptions of wining to due to lack of posts within a 24 hour period are aggravating as this is the holidays and I was expecting to be out of town on a trip right now.
Your entire thread long temper tantrum has gone on long enough. There is no prejudice towards WSS in Bee Wings, we simply don't believe there is a need to add them due to the evidence that they're already a simple matter to acquire.
So as my final thought before I leave this thread, unless you continue to be some ass who assumes he's won due to some random time limit he's arbitrarily added, I leave you with these kind words.
![[Image: willywonka.jpg]](http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/8685/willywonka.jpg)