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+--- Thread: Has DG Made HeRO Too Easy? Does it Need a Nerf? (/showthread.php?tid=22870)
RE: Has DG Made HeRO Too Easy? Does it Need a Nerf? - Ultima_Pi - 12-11-2012
Go to a lower rate server?
I think DG's drops are better than Nameless'. Just saying.
RE: Has DG Made HeRO Too Easy? Does it Need a Nerf? - Gojira - 12-11-2012
I miss Bloody's DG 2 parties with an LK as DPS =(
RE: Has DG Made HeRO Too Easy? Does it Need a Nerf? - NihonNights - 12-16-2012
Menace651 Wrote:Has DG Made HeRO Too Easy? Does it Need a Nerf?
It's not that DG is too easy, it's that everything else is too hard, relative to it. We have to think about a more broader context than one map.
The problem with raising party EXP rates is that it automatically disadvantages a solo style of play, and classes that are more solo oriented, like Agi Knight, Rogues and Grimtooth Sins. It is not just DG it is partying in general. It invalidates entire builds. When people level significantly faster in one particular way, it incentivizes people to adapt their character to that way. Those incentives have corresponding constraints. They mean that people have fewer builds that are good for soloing. Which means that less and less people are spread out in other non-party maps, which means fewer drops from those maps. Which means a greater scarcity of things like Skeleton Worker cards, etc.
A greater scarcity would normally solve itself: as things are harder to find, their price goes up. But heRO's economy is so rigid that it barely responds to supply and demand, cards and gear have a constant price and rarely change regardless of the actual reality of how people's behavior is influencing what's rare and what's not so rare.
I am convinced that most of these cards that people want end up originating from OCAs on heRO and not actually hunted. Would be interesting if there was a way to cull statistics about that.
So, if the GM's want to change something, they need to be fully aware that what they incentivize is going to constrain some other behavior. If we incentivize party leveling, it comes at the expense of solo leveling, and on a server with a small active population, a lot of people are stuck soloing, so those with "friends" level about 5 times as fast as they do given the exact same amount of time. Those slow levelers are doing way more work whilst all the while doing a more valuable service to the server economy by supplying their drops from varied areas instead of the 1billionth LBW or 10milllionth Cursed Hand. Soloers work harder but aren't rewarded for that. Eco stagnates because of this.
It is important to also be aware that the game, sans GM tinkering, already has particular incentives. For example, you can level quickly in Thor, but the gear requirement is relatively steep. The smaller the party, the steeper the requirement. DG doesn't even require a bathory armor. I have lured there as a Rogue without it on several occasions. Even easier if you have endure. You need an adventurers hat or peco and that's it.
Other maps can become more competitive if there were a "Map of the week/month" every 2 or 4 weeks that offers bonus EXP. Certain maps could be excluded from ever getting on that list, (Thor 1 and 3, DG, Necros, ID3) and others would be promoted that are more feasible (Medusa, Anolian, Majos, Juperos, etc) and for soloers "a mob of the week" could be interesting, incentivizing hunting/lvling in a different place. We can already see people adapting to the Alarm Map having extra spawns and exp. This changes player behavior, and that is not a bad thing. Of course, these ideas may also have corresponding negative constraints, so it is important to study which maps would be made available for "Map of the week".
Anyway, this post is long enough as it is; stopping for now.
RE:??Has DG Made HeRO Too Easy? Does it Need a Nerf? - ghaleoneternal - 08-06-2013
NihonNights Wrote:Other maps can become more competitive if there were a "Map of the week/month" every 2 or 4 weeks that offers bonus EXP. Certain maps could be excluded from ever getting on that list, (Thor 1 and 3, DG, Necros, ID3) and others would be promoted that are more feasible (Medusa, Anolian, Majos, Juperos, etc) and for soloers "a mob of the week" could be interesting, incentivizing hunting/lvling in a different place. We can already see people adapting to the Alarm Map having extra spawns and exp. This changes player behavior, and that is not a bad thing. Of course, these ideas may also have corresponding negative constraints, so it is important to study which maps would be made available for "Map of the week".
Has anyone started a poll on this subject or done anything further?
As a potential returning player this is something that greatly interests me, both from a solo and group perspective.
In the past few days I've seen only DG parties and nothing else being advertised in main. There doesn't appear to be much variety in where people generally hunt. A couple of years ago when I trans'd LK and HP during 5th or 6th anniversary, Nameless was all the rage.
It would be a breath of fresh air and variety to add some kind of map/mob of the week with very slight, albeit rewarding exp bonus.
RE: Has DG Made HeRO Too Easy? Does it Need a Nerf? - Gojira - 08-06-2013
Actually, monster of the moment has been added, it's currently necromancers (doubled exp on them) but people are still too lazy to do the quests for nameless access.....
RE: Has DG Made HeRO Too Easy? Does it Need a Nerf? - Weapon - 08-06-2013
It's a real de-motivator. Why bother working hard to get what you want when you can just go to DG and let other people work hard? Another step further, why play in a place where that's the norm?
RE:??Has DG Made HeRO Too Easy? Does it Need a Nerf? - ghaleoneternal - 08-06-2013
Gojira Wrote:Actually, monster of the moment has been added, it's currently necromancers (doubled exp on them) but people are still too lazy to do the quests for nameless access.....
Is there a section in forums or an NPC in game that tells you what the current monster is?
Nameless is one of the more annoying quests, up there with Thanatos and Kiel. I still have yet to do it on any of my toons even though I really thought my LK was keyed for it from a couple years ago.
Weapon Wrote:It's a real de-motivator. Why bother working hard to get what you want when you can just go to DG and let other people work hard? Another step further, why play in a place where that's the norm?
I don't know, it's a 5/5/3 server, you shouldn't be playing here if you aren't willing to work hard. It can take anywhere from a couple of days to a couple of weeks to hunt a card/rare equip. To me that is more of a demotivator than doing a quest. Perhaps it would not be so bad, if once you unlocked a warp/dungeon on one character, then all other characters on that account have access. To me, having to do Nameless or another dungeon quest like that multiple times is a huge demotivator.
RE: Has DG Made HeRO Too Easy? Does it Need a Nerf? - Ptah - 08-06-2013
Iono, to me RPG should mostly consist of quests :D And talking. And lots and lots of choices. Few times of the above. But then again it appears to me i'm some kind of oddity for believing that D: Anyways, i enjoy doing quests in RO, especially if you read them along the way
Using guide is not fun at all (and that's why i just love every new quest that appears here... A chance to make a guide myself AND do a completely new quest! Two birds with one stone :D ) And i don't really think adding anything new map/mob etc etc should happen. I bet 90% of current players haven't even seen most of RO maps or fought monsters besides the standart set (HWs, Anubi, DG etc, add in to your liking). Efficiency and all. Aaand i'm going to sleep. Too tired to think
RE: Has DG Made HeRO Too Easy? Does it Need a Nerf? - yacsef - 08-06-2013
I actually enjoy DG parties, not the ones with 3 wizards and 5 leechers, the normal parties where everyone knows what to do or learn what to do. If DG is boring for you because you camp the entrance, you can walk, you know. All this to say that DG doesn't make the game easier, it's actually a good way to learn the basics of some classes.
Though, i highly suggest people to learn how to do different dungeons, there is almost no difficulty in DG, except for some classes, like the lure (and it's not even that hard). Having to go to Thor may teach the priests how to pneuma and recover, the profs how to save parties from ninjas by webbing, etc. And people say that DG is stupid because the only thing you need is a bathory . Well it's almost the same with thors, you only need a pasana for some classes. Thors also has some useful gears (some of the bests).
So, i don't find DG OP or anything like that, and nerfing it would make people go nameless. And to be honest, nameless is easier than DG.
RE:??Has DG Made HeRO Too Easy? Does it Need a Nerf? - Menace651 - 08-07-2013
yacsef Wrote:I actually enjoy DG parties, not the ones with 3 wizards and??5 leechers, the normal parties where everyone knows what to do or learn what to do. If DG is boring for you because you camp the entrance, you can walk, you know. All this to say that DG doesn't make the game easier, it's actually a good way to learn the basics of some classes.
Though, i highly suggest people to learn how to do different dungeons, there is almost no difficulty in DG, except for some classes, like the lure (and it's not even that hard). Having to go to Thor may teach the priests how to pneuma and recover, the profs how to save parties from ninjas by webbing, etc. And people say that DG is stupid because the only thing you need is a bathory . Well it's almost the same with thors, you only need a pasana for some classes. Thors also has some useful gears (some of the bests).
So, i don't find DG OP or anything like that, and nerfing it would make people go nameless. And to be honest, nameless is easier than DG.
An unskilled player is going to be an unskilled player no matter where they go. I still see a lot of parties wiping at DG because their wizards don't know how to control mobs and quag or their dispel rushes foolishly at valks trying to dispel without gust cover. This facts holds true in other parties too. I see priests that don't know to pneuma to block ranged attacks and evil land or use sanctuary to make mass healing easier.
As far as the argument for nerfing DG I think the only thing that should be done is to impose higher level restrictions like bio 3 or thanatos tower. This will force players to work a little harder to get to DG and explore new exp areas instead of the usual ice dungeon to 80 then go to DG and WIN. Of course any kind of change like this would never happen because of all the crying and rage quitting that would happen. But who knows nameless and mosc didn't use to have any pre-req quests back then. Some pre-req quests or restrictions could be added to DG in the future.