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Changes to WoE - azurerogue - 01-25-2010
Note: I'm aware this is a wall of text.??Feel free to just read at your leisure - but please don't comment unless you've read each point, because they do have connections that support each other.
There have been a lot of threads about how to improve WoE on this server.??Rather than writing an overly long and somewhat off-topic response in one of those threads, I thought I'd start my own.??This post may deal with some of the points discussed in other threads, but the end conclusions are radically different from what other threads ask for.??This thread is specifically about trans WoE, so anytime I talk about WoE in general it does not include non-trans WoE.??
First, let's go over a few changes to WoE that heRO has implemented:
- There are only 2 castles open during WoE as opposed to the 20 castles normally open.
- There are no castle-specific treasure chest spawns.??Each castle spawns a random selection from all available chests each day.
- Chest drops are customized on heRO.
- Chest spawn:Economy formula is customized on heRO.
- Each castle allows access to all guild dungeons, rather than just the dungeon corresponding to the castle owned.
- Indirect change: the God Item quest is disabled on heRO (God Items still obtainable through gathering the appropriate pieces).
Now, to go through these changes and explain how I feel they impact the procedure/participation/rewards of WoE:
Quote:There are only 2 castles open during WoE as opposed to the 20 castles normally open.
Our current system involves two castles.??This was done because, for the most part, when there were three castles open the public opinion was that there was not enough competition.??Now that their are two castles, the same complaint seems to be prevalent.??The occasion of a castle being conquered during WoE has become a rare event again (rare meaning, in this case, that it doesn't even regularly happen 1x/WoE).??
Some people think lowering the castles to one castle open would help solve this problem.??It will not.??Leaving only one castle open means that the two large guilds currently holding castles will fight with each other and smaller guilds will still generally be excluded.??In the meantime, rather than allowing a new alliance to form and gather items from a secondary (or more) castle we are allowing the one dominant guild to gain more and more treasure basically unchallenged.
I would suggest that opening more castles is actually a better solution.??Yes, it would mean that some castles would remain virtually untouched for most of WoE (because our WoE population does not support 20 castles), but it would also allow small guilds to run in and break low-priority castles to "get in on the action."??It would allow new, skilled, guilds to join in on WoE without requiring a ton of top-tier gear (they would essentially only need a breaker and the ability to defend for 1-3 minutes at the end of WoE).??Opening more castles would, in my opinion, encourage more participation in WoE.??
Closing castles forces the big guilds to compete more, that is true, but it also basically precludes any new guilds from "getting their feet wet" while trying out WoE on our server.??If you through a new guild into a one-castle environment - even if they farm endlessly - most members will quit once they see weeks, months, or even longer with never a single castle taken.??Open more castles, and you'll have the two dominant guilds each holding more than one castle, this is also true, but there is a limit to how many castles a guild can successfully hold (especially when there is more than one big guild out there, looking to gank your castles).??The extended defenses would make it easier for new guilds to slip in and break an emperium - rewarding their efforts in WoE significantly more than just dying in the exact same precast week after week until the GMs rotate for a change of scene so that the small guild can continue dying (but at least see a new map while they do it).??
Quote:There are no castle-specific treasure chest spawns.??Each castle spawns a random selection from all available chests each day.
Now, the obvious problem with opening all the castles (if such a thing were done) is that even if the small guilds got a castle or two, the big guilds could just hole up in their already built-up castles and occasionally break the small guilds to get their treasures.??Why???Because heRO's WoE system does not reward changing castles.??With random treasure chest spawns, the odds of getting any god item component are the same no matter what castle you hold.??So if you only need one more god item component, there is still no need to change castle any more than if you have no god item components.??
There are, in my opinion, two problems with random treasure chest spawns.??The first is, as briefly stated above, that it allows a guild to endlessly "turtle" inside one castle and, with enough patience and luck, make a god item.??The second is that it makes the creation of a god item an even slower, even more random, event that it already is (and it's already very time-intensive).??With predetermined chest spawns, making a god item is about strategically taking and holding the right castles and THEN hoping to get lucky.??On heRO, it's ALL about getting lucky.??This removes a huge part of the strategy involved in holding castles in WoE.
It also removes a huge part of the strategy in which castles to keep your opponent from getting.??It essentially simultaneously simplifies WoE (in a way such as to make it less interesting) and complicates making a god item (in a way such as to make it more frustrating).??If all castles were open, and chest spawns were no longer random - guilds big and small would WANT to take different castles eventually, rather than turtling behind a boring (even if very strong) precast because they would need to rotate castles to get the appropriate god item pieces.??This is an essential part of the WoE metagame and I wish it existed on heRO.??
Quote:Chest drops are customized on heRO.
As long as the god item pieces remain in the appropriate chest this is totally fine though, in my opinion, unnecessary.??The chest drops were made better in an attempt to better reward castle owners (I presume).??However, the end goals of WoE have always been, and will always be, to make a god item.??The other drops are extra bonuses, in my opinion.??Again, the custom drops are nice and can stay, but are not necessary additions.
Quote:Chest spawn:Economy formula is customized on heRO.
This may not be entirely true.??The non-trans formula is certainly customized.??I am not 100% certain of what the default formula is.??I have no idea why it would have been changed, but as long as it's even for all castles it's okay.??
Quote:Each castle allows access to all guild dungeons, rather than just the dungeon corresponding to the castle owned.
This is not nearly as major a change as the random chests, but the fact that you can get to any guild dungeon from any castle basically removes what little extra motivation a guild might have had to take another castle.??Again, the removal of access to all guild dungeons from each castle would further motivate a guild to change castles if they wanted access to a new dungeon.??It would also motivate an enemy guild to try to specifically force a rival guild out of a map of castles to keep dungeon access from them.??
Quote:Indirect change: the God Item quest is disabled on heRO (God Items still obtainable through gathering the appropriate pieces).
This isn't the end of the world (especially if heRO uses iRO Emperium stats in the future), but ice picks are very hard for a new guild to get.??While it is possible to break without an ice pick - it is generally less likely to succeed and the removal of the god items quest makes it that much harder for a new guild to take a castle.??Again, not nearly as big as points one and two, but still a factor.??
------------------------------------------------
Finale: Open more castles, de-randomize chests (or somewhat de-randomize chests - Alde chests spawn in Alde, etc - if you only want to open a few castles per map), limit guild dungeon access to appropriate castles.
Again, these are all just my opinions.??Feel free to disagree. But I have presented my thoughts fully and unless asked to clarify one of my points I will probably not respond to anything less than well-structured responses.
RE: Changes to WoE - mahawirasd - 01-26-2010
i applaud you for your thoroughly thought-out topic.
from the last thread i read about customized castle drops, i must say that the GMs do try their best to make WOE more rewarding for castle holders to coax more ppl to participate. I personally think that what they did is spot on.
Nevertheless, I share your sentiments regarding castle cycling for dungeon access and boxes, but i must admit that making god items any more accessible than it already is would really be a risk even i as a casual player fear because god items do somewhat break the game.
if our main concern is the same thing; namely new guilds, here's my suggestion: open more non-trans castles rather than trans castles. I don't know if non trans castles drop god components, i would prefer they didn't. Keep the customized eco formula because imho they are already rewarding enough.
We could also do the guild dun access modification so that startup guilds participate in non trans woe and learn the castle layouts as well as maximize the utilization of the dungeons. The trans castle holders could still access all the guild dungeons while the non trans would only access their respective dungeons.
Why more non-trans?
1. because your analysis is spot on regarding WOE needing more variety
2. because non-trans is a good "sand box" for trans WOE later on
3. because most ppl complain about mvp cards and those cards more often than not are slotted into trans gears which means that newcomers need not fear non trans woe inequality as much as trans woe.
4. because newcomers or startup guilds would probably be ready to get into non-trans WOE 3 times faster than the time it takes to level and gear up for trans WOE
5. so that people actually enjoy non trans a bit more rather than just nameless to 99 like so many ppl do... (refer to the other thread about how many trans there are yet only a minority WOEs)
and in the end of the day, if my proposed "test" works out for non-trans then you could copy it to trans WOE when there are more guilds "ready" for a larger trans woe. If it doesn't, then even if there was any harm done to the server's economy, the effects are more control-able due to the reduced eco formula and limited guild dun access. Again i would like to iterate that personally i feel that HeRO is not ready for god items and so if you want to open up more castles please try it out in a lesser extent for non trans before trying it out on trans woe...
-w-
RE: Changes to WoE - azurerogue - 01-26-2010
I know I said I would probably not respond - but your argument about god items piqued my interest.??When, then, would you say heRO would be ready for god items???The server has been around for four years now.??And these changes wouldn't make it easier to make god items, they would simply make it more strategic and would allow guild (and their enemies) to make a concerted effort to make/stop someone from making god items - as opposed to leaving it entirely up to chance.??
But, honestly, god items do not "break the game" to the extent everyone seems to think they do.??Yes, double megs on any str-based character will be amazing - but that's one character (wielding TWO god items, btw).??If an entire guild can't stop one character with god items, then they wouldn't have stood a chance against an enemy guild anyways.??On top of that, even with the exponential benefits of strength, double megs are not "instant win."??An optimally geared SinX with access to no MVP cards and double megs would deal about 8k damage to my Professor (assuming I do NOT have assumptio)...??that's not game breaking.??
I do appreciate your suggestions in general, as they add more to the pool of possible changes that might help WoE out.??But the idea that god items will "break the game" is far too widespread.??They change the metagame - they do NOT end it.??
EDIT: Also, just for comparison, if you decide to wear double megs into WoE (or carry double megs at all), you're giving up the inventory weight of 320 condensed whites. Just food for thought.
RE:??Changes to WoE - Manifus - 01-26-2010
azurerogue Wrote:But, honestly, god items do not "break the game" to the extent everyone seems to think they do.??Yes, double megs on any str-based character will be amazing - but that's one character (wielding TWO god items, btw).??If an entire guild can't stop one character with god items, then they wouldn't have stood a chance against an enemy guild anyways.??On top of that, even with the exponential benefits of strength, double megs are not "instant win."??An optimally geared SinX with access to no MVP cards and double megs would deal about 8k damage to my Professor (assuming I do NOT have assumptio)...??that's not game breaking.??
I do appreciate your suggestions in general, as they add more to the pool of possible changes that might help WoE out.??But the idea that god items will "break the game" is far too widespread.??They change the metagame - they do NOT end it.??
You have to keep in mind more than just WoE balance, but also how that would effect balance to every other aspect, whether it be PvE, PvP, ToH, or anything else for that matter.
I won't comment much more on your idea for now, considering the exploits and advantages of each right now, but I think that progress can be made, so I'll leave you to it.
RE: Changes to WoE - Nidsrule - 01-26-2010
Regarding the God Item Quest, why isn't it merely modified by replacing the rewards which are seen as being over powered (although I dont agree with this view) and replace them with something that is deemed to be more appropriate?
As a quest it is fairly well structured and (in my opinion) is fitting of the concept of god items. Surely it's easier to just modify the original quest to fit in with what the GM team deems as being well balanced for heRO, rather than trying to make an entirely custom quest which would accommodate the lack of the original quest.
As for the main topic, I still disagree with the use of even more castles. I only see two reasons for people to WoE; to get their fix of PvP and to obtain God Items. Basically everything else coming from those chests can be obtained from PvM and for the most part, smaller guilds have a much higher chance of obtaining items by farming for them (either solo or as a group) than by hoping for a lucky break (or lucky hold depending on how you look at it).
This idea of having large numbers of castles is basically what is used on iRO. There are a number of larger alliances which keep each other in check (which in the case of WoE 1 each take multiple castles) and then a few smaller guilds. These smaller guilds might be able to take a hold a castle but in most cases, assuming the bigger guilds don't have other bigger guilds to mess with at the time, they wont be holding the castle for long enough to make it worth it.
These smaller guilds are ultimately left with the options of continuing to WoE by themselves (I guess for the PvP aspect/challenge) or are forced to form alliances amongst themselves/with larger guilds. Assuming they have any aspirations of attaining god items soloing surely isnt an option (especially on a server like heRO).
To sum it up, I see opening more castles ultimately favoring larger existing guilds even more, rather than giving newer guilds a welcoming environment to ease their way into the WoE scene.
I'll have to continue this later on...
RE: Changes to WoE - Sakurato - 01-26-2010
Ok, wellll if we opened more castles and aloud for 'smaller' guilds to run in and take them then that would just give bigger guilds something to do during woe, which is nice BUT ultimately the same problem.??I know Seraph AND Behemoth can spare 5-10 people out of their precasts. Those 5-10 people will be most likely MUCH better geared than a new, smaller guild and will just??roll right over them and take the castle ending up with two instead of one.
Proof of this was when revenga started. Though they are now very strong for a small guild back then five people could take out their 10-15 people. However, this is not the case now ;D.
Anyways, newer most likely wouldn't be able to hold??a castle much less build any steady eco.
At the same time I also do agree with opening new castles. The two castles we have now feel like they are being given to us. I mean, 2 big guilds, 2 castles, no room for newbies. I guess repeatedly losing your castle is something you gotta put up with when you're small.
RE: Changes to WoE - GM-Aki - 01-26-2010
Lovely, some people read my mind. I've started thinking on this, hoping for a sign of the GODess telling me the secret of a succesfull woe. And what a mystery it is. Some people are for more castles, some for less. There is no official guide unfortunatly.
What does everyone woe for? The God items or for the chests or the dungeons or the pvp or all of the above? Even that question is hard to answer. Which part would encourage people to woe, for those that want to woe
The chests were all mixed up for the simple reason that we've less than the 4 open castles open for the longest time. I'm not trusting my memory to say we've had all 4 open.
Lets take Big WoE.
Going with the supposition of keeping 2 castles open for now, would seperating the guild dungeon access in two and the chests possibility to two lists (one castle has 2 official and the other has 2 offical), would it help with a more active woe? or would it just rotate between the two "big" guilds?
Taking the Small WoE.
Opening more castles, with the lower eco thats in effect right now, would players (new and old) play more or just settle down in another 1 or 2 castles and not move, making that woe a sit in a castle and watch the time pass too?
?-.-? keeping an eye on the thread to make sure it stays a discussion
please suggest away because my magic 8 ball just says "Concentrate more and ask again" /desp
RE: Changes to WoE - Session - 01-26-2010
I would be in favor of a couple "smaller" castles for non-trans woe etc.
That being said, I do have a bias that some of you may know about this. Since, I'll be making my own guild at some point, and when we do WoE I'd prefer to not be "forced" to fight against behemoth/seraph and all these other huge trans guilds, just to attempt and take a castle.
Now, the way I look at it...if say, an odd number of new castles are opened, and guilds that exist already say "Hey, behe and seraph can't get to these...so maybe we should try?" and take it, eventually someone will come along and fight them. As competition starts, more will follow.
Though, I know from experience that larger guilds will usually make a smaller guild of their own members, with non-trans, and very well geared non-trans at that, characters- especially for monopolizing the non-trans castles they can't normally take.
God items- No, I don't want them. I'm sick of people being so overly geared its not funny, and making WoE/PvP so off balanced that nobody below a 95/x trans+gears cannot take care of. Personally, this is mainly because I originally played a custom server, where brisangemen and megs are commonplace for anyone with some irl money, or the time to grind and buy them...
Lord knows, the larger guilds will rush at full power the moment treasure chests can drop god item ingredients. Yes, it may take a while of holding their castles...but surely the way competition in WoE seems to be in the server right now, it would not be a good idea to let chests drop them.
My vote: Wait until more guilds are actually breaking, and taking castles. Wait until more people are giving a concerted effort to take said castles, then talk about god items.
(I know my post isn't all special, and organized like you others, but...meh.
)
RE: Changes to WoE - Merellis - 01-26-2010
They already drop the ingredients Takhara, need to get them all for the item, then trade with a GM to get it. Just to mention it now. ;D
And as for opening all the castles to have the drops they need and the dungeons only, at that point a small guild could work on getting a castle and get used to WoEing, or start getting what they need. (Still hunting his damn Marc Card. XD) Most of the cards/gear you need for WoE are easy to get, they just take time. o-o I mean, anyone can kill a bunch of Hydra's with no issues, or get a mob of Marcs, they just take time.
RE: Changes to WoE - Session - 01-26-2010
So...they already drop them ? ._. So, this means that people already have ingredients for god items- they just can't make them?
Er, correct me if this is wrong, but isn't it unfair for people to have ingredients for the god items quests prior to them being available?