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+--- Thread: Anti-bot Gravity map design (/showthread.php?tid=9912)
Anti-bot Gravity map design - Little Sara - 05-12-2009
Following a certain update, Yuno or Amatsu I'm not certain, Gravity changed certain maps, putting very strong monsters on those maps relative to the rest of the map.
This does not really prevent botting because bots can just teleport whenever they see the threat, but moreover, it's not necessary on such a low population server (compared to always-5000-on iRO servers).
Bots, if any, can be reported with more ease on a lower population server, so this shouldn't pose a problem in my opinion.
I'm not asking to modify all maps, only two or three, and it only involves removing one monster from each:
Geffen dungeon level 1: Hunter Fly
This used to be a prime training ground for agi and vit classes alike until they hit about job 40 even on 1x rates. With Hunter Fly present, however, this is not viable for any less-than-lv-75 melee class. Removing Hunter Fly from this map would open a new leveling spot.
Clock Tower level 2F: Rideword
This used to be a prime training ground for mages, and sometimes their supporting acolytes. Clocks are not aggressive and Punks are slow. Even Deviruchi who used to be there was tolerable. But Rideword kills even high-agi 2nd advanced classes in a few seconds, let alone a 1st class squishy with no flee.
Removing Rideword would let mages once again have access to the high job exp of Clock.
Clock Tower level 3F: Rideword
Mimic is avoidable on this map (he doesnt outright kill you), and while harder than Clocks (because they aggro and are neutral), Alarms give more base exp than Clocks. This is the same as Clock Tower 2F, a training ground for mages and wizards. Hunters and Assassins also used to go there at above 220 flee (Alarm needs about that much), or using traps. With Rideword present, it's more of a nuisance though.
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Rideword can be left on Clock Tower 1F and all of its maps in Glast Heim where its numbers are already staggeringly high.
Similarly Hunter Fly can be left on the maps where it normally is. They are normally present with other similarly-high level monsters.
RE: Anti-bot Gravity map design - Cheesecake - 05-12-2009
I agree. Gravity is doing things to prevent auto-training whereas here it's making there be less and less low level spots to train. You have to seclude yourself to the cookie-cutter ones that everyone uses. Mind you I don't mind staying at the Mavka map for however long, it would be nice to go back to training at the places I did way back when.
RE: Anti-bot Gravity map design - Aaronock - 05-12-2009
I'll run through this best I can, giving you some similar spots and things so these evil mobs won't even really be a problem.
Quote:This used to be a prime training ground for agi and vit classes alike until they hit about job 40 even on 1x rates. With Hunter Fly present, however, this is not viable for any less-than-lv-75 melee class. Removing Hunter Fly from this map would open a new leveling spot.
Go one more south of the wolf map there is a poison spore map. It contains like 5 dragonflies on it but that's a pretty slow moving monster in comparison to the hunter fly.
Quote:Clock Tower level 2F: Rideword
This used to be a prime training ground for mages, and sometimes their supporting acolytes. Clocks are not aggressive and Punks are slow. Even Deviruchi who used to be there was tolerable. But Rideword kills even high-agi 2nd advanced classes in a few seconds, let alone a 1st class squishy with no flee.
Removing Rideword would let mages once again have access to the high job exp of Clock.
I feel the ridewords here are proving CT isn't suppose to be for low levels. However, if you are insistent, wouldn't most mages here pack up Firewall or Safety Wall to handle rideword? You can also after hitting with FW if you got it to use FD on the Rideword and LB kill it. The reason I feel this place changed was to make it more of a 70-90 map not a 40-90 map. Mages can still go to places like Soils and Geos for their lower levels and it'll probably be faster.
Quote:Clock Tower level 3F: Rideword
Mimic is avoidable on this map (he doesnt outright kill you), and while harder than Clocks (because they aggro and are neutral), Alarms give more base exp than Clocks. This is the same as Clock Tower 2F, a training ground for mages and wizards. Hunters and Assassins also used to go there at above 220 flee (Alarm needs about that much), or using traps. With Rideword present, it's more of a nuisance though.
Place is still doable by mages. Just have your flywings ready if rideword gets out of hand as second class. I trained here tons on my old midrate. I don't understand complaints on this one.
Go to Rachel Sanc and deal with Hodrem, he's worse than rideword anyday I almost feel. xD
Anyway, I'm not for changing these maps, there are alternatives or methods to deal with each.
RE: Anti-bot Gravity map design - Little Sara - 05-12-2009
Yes I did consider Fire Wall, you know mages and wizards going there used Fire Wall and Fire Bolt on Clocks (who are Earth element)? Yet a Rideword comes from behind and smites you in two hits. A Rideword would also pierce a Fire Wall pretty fast since the speed it pierces one depends on their movement speed. Rideword is "Fast". Clock is "Slow" and could pierce your non-vertical Fire Wall in a matter of 3 seconds.
Assassins and Hunters probably also have some degree of trouble fleeing a 254 flee enemy (lv 99 + 99+10 agi + 40 flee increase dodge = 248 flee), Pantie + Undershirt make it 263 flee...if you invest 99 agi (which means low strength). Hunter probably can't reach 254 flee because they lack Increase Dodge and Improve Concentration grants nowhere near 40 flee. (They might be able to with Avian wings + Mocking garment, but if they can actually gather Avian wings items, it means Rideword's 254 flee required wouldn't be a problem...since you need Gonryun 3 items for Avian).
I went Gonryun 3. I had to use 200 Yellow Potions to gather Transparent Celestial Robes (yes, only 10 needed). Even with Discount 10, this is 76,000 to get a pretty minor item at 100% drop. If you can go to Gonryun without a loss, you can probably handle Rideword.
How are people supposed to get Clock Hands? Make parties of 2-3 for it?
The Dragon Tail map with Poison Spore is only good if you actually flee Dragon Tail also. Dragon Tail may be reasonable to flee, but it hits so fast (like Rideword) that even 95% flee will mean you'll overuse potions compared to your loot. I know this from experience as I leveled in Turtle Island before, and always had to pass TI 1 with Dragon Tails.
Rideword:
Needed for 95% flee: 254
Atk Speed?? 0.86s/hit??
Attack 584-804
Dragon Tail:
Needed for 95% flee: 203
Atk Speed?? 0.86s/hit??
Attack 520-715
ie Those maps are not profitable solo, because you'll overuse potions, to make it profitable and not a loss, you need a heal slave following you around.
If these maps are not profitable to level 99s solo, how good are they to level 70s solos?
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PS: I'm pretty sure Gravity did this as an anti-bot measure, the same reason they added Nine Tails to Payon 4. Not to make the map harder level-wise. (Payon 4 used to be okay at level 55 Assassin for Sohees, same for Payon 3 at 50 Thief).
Or Mi Gao/Soil map would not have Mantis, but Killer Mantis or something like that (Mi Gao is slightly lower level than Clock).
By the way, I'm not asking to change the Dragon Tail and Poison Spore map. If Geffen 1 has Hunter Fly removed, there will be a decent Poison Spore map for lower levels.
You know why Assassin Cross hunt Red Mushroom instead of Poison Spore for Karvodailnirol? No decent spawning map for Poison Spore without stuff like Dragon Tail or Hunter Fly in the way. The drop rate for Karvo is the same in both cases: 1.5%. Assassin Cross can handle either of those, but who wants to waste potions (spend more than income through etc loot) when gathering ingredients?
Killing Poison Spore would be less dull, even without mobbing them, than giving 15 bare-handed hits to a unmoving mushroom.
Quote:I trained here tons on my old midrate. I don't understand complaints on this one.
On midrates you make zeny like water, you never need to consider your potion to loot ratio because you'll get rare drops often. You can go to Juperos and get 2500z item drops at 100% rate on a midrate. On a lowrate, especially x3 (as opposed to say, x20), you need to consider that, because not everyone has millions of zeny to spare or spend into pots.
I made 9 million selling Zerom card, which is 1/3333 drop. I calculated I can kill ~75/30 minutes (timed with Awakening potion). Before you reach 3333 kills you'll have over 22 hours of hunting. That's roughly 500k/hour a ratio. This may not be the fastest way to make money, but that's a pretty high value for a card (many are 500k, 1m, 2m-3m). So you can't count on rare items for steady income, even if you hunt them all the time.
My point being, on a 3x rate, you are not rich (at least not for a long while), you can't spend 100k on white potions for Clock Tower 2-3 or Geffen 1 for 30 or 60 minutes.
PPS: Besides "there are other maps that work", is there a reason to keep those maps I request changed completely empty?
RE: Anti-bot Gravity map design - Aaronock - 05-14-2009
I used a battle sage with dagger of counter, frigg's circlet, and pantie+undreshirt combo. It was my first character and I actually make more money here on this server easier than my old one...
BTW on Dragonfly, he's still easy to avoid, there aren't that many of them. I useta go on this map tons with rogue, same with CT, never had problems. I still go on this map now, and never really have issues with Dragonfly, I simply walk from him, he's slow enough or easy enough usually to deal with (flywing if low level, and yes newbies can afford to carry maybe 10 or so to level with).
I don't see a point to changing the maps, there are alternatives that exist, or um, well maybe just go there when it isn't impossible.
Oh my maybe you could work with people just like you said to collect clock hands, or get to a HIGHER LEVEL first to be able to do it on your own. Really I'm trying to figure out why to change these maps when I have no problem with them whatsoever, and yes I did train my sage here as CT 2-3 every now and then, and again was my first character. The place is now more difficult but far from impossible and these places were nerfed just like Rach Sanc cause they were TOO good before.
RE: Anti-bot Gravity map design - azurerogue - 05-14-2009
Another suggestion: do the fishing quest - you'll never worry about paying for potions ever again (it loses money initially, but once you get points built up it can be quite profitable).??
EDIT: Also for your flee stats, something is off. My Rogue is only level 81 and has 240 Flee and he doesn't have 99 AGI. The only special piece of gear he has is a mocking muffler (other than that he wears an uncarded/unupped bucker/chainmail/2x ring/no shoes/ghost bandana). It's definitely not unreasonable to expect any "flee" character to hit over or around 250. My Rogue will probably have somewhere near 270-280 at 99. Not that every sniper chooses to go pure AGI/DEX, but the ones that do can pretty easily hit similar flee levels.
RE: Anti-bot Gravity map design - Monkey Feet - 05-14-2009
Dude, live with it, if you don't like it, go make your own server with these rules. I personally like the ridewords since they're ok profit and I can kill em easy with 204 flee. I dunno bout y'all, but it doesn't seem like you need 250 flee.
RE:??Anti-bot Gravity map design - Little Sara - 05-14-2009
azurerogue Wrote:Another suggestion: do the fishing quest - you'll never worry about paying for potions ever again (it loses money initially, but once you get points built up it can be quite profitable).??
EDIT: Also for your flee stats, something is off.??My Rogue is only level 81 and has 240 Flee and he doesn't have 99 AGI.??The only special piece of gear he has is a mocking muffler (other than that he wears an uncarded/unupped bucker/chainmail/2x ring/no shoes/ghost bandana).??It's definitely not unreasonable to expect any "flee" character to hit over or around 250.??My Rogue will probably have somewhere near 270-280 at 99.??Not that every sniper chooses to go pure AGI/DEX, but the ones that do can pretty easily hit similar flee levels.??
Flee is:
Level + Agi + skill/cards
Level 80 + 80 agi + 10agi job bonus + mocking (20) + increase dodge (40) = 230 flee.
I have 232+6 flee, and my agi isn't exactly low. I use Pantie+Undershirt, so I lose 5 there, but since Whispers have gone away from Geffen 2, they're not as easy to hunt, I also prefer the +5 agi.
For a lv 70, with 90 agi, increase dodge, mocking and no other agi gear, they reach 220 flee.
For a lv 99, with 99+15 agi (counting gear), increase dodge, pantie+undershirt (10 flee). They reach 263. Unfortunately my build doesn't have 99 base agi due to the scarcity of status points.
So lv 99 with 90+15 agi, increase dodge, pantie+undershirt = 254
So I'd have to wait until I get an aura to hunt clock hands for Zodiacs, or go with a heal slave at all times, because of a single enemy on the map.
Quote:Dude, live with it, if you don't like it, go make your own server with these rules.
1) I'm not a dude.
2) I'm not asking to "change rules".
Quote:I personally like the ridewords since they're ok profit and I can kill em easy with 204 flee. I dunno bout y'all, but it doesn't seem like you need 250 flee.
3) There are a TON of them in Glast Heim, especially Castle 2, but apparently everywhere outside Churchyard, Sewers/Cave or Staircase (that is, there are some in Chivalry, in Castle, in "inside GH" and other places there). Apparently many also in Thanatos.
4) http://ratemyserver.net/index.php?page=mob_db&mob_name=rideword&f=1&mob_search=Search
See for yourself, I doubt our Rideword is custom.
PS: The most is in Clock Tower 1, if you want to hunt Rideword specifically, you'd go in CT1 not CT2 or CT3. And I did NOT mention CT1, leave it as is. Only CT2 and CT3, who only have 12 and 6 (including some timed respawn ones). CT1 has 70.
RE: Anti-bot Gravity map design - GM-Ayu - 05-14-2009
Gravity works in mysterious ways.
They make an old map a lot harder like you mentioned (ancient mummy is another one), but then make new maps just as abusable if not worse than the old ones (looking at you, anubis).
If you don't like firewall which I can understand perfectly, you still got quagmire to greatly slow down ridewords to run away. For rogues dealing with clocks, really fly wing solves plenty of problem. You pointed out yourself how the problematic monsters are really only in low numbers anyway, and it's a big map.
Hunting rideword I prefer GH libraries actually. 70 on a map looks nice, but on a map that big, it's pretty bad... GH has a nice cozy library with like 10 of them all together in a place, and if you're waiting for them to respawn, beat up a few raydrics and by then they're back again.
RE: Anti-bot Gravity map design - Little Sara - 05-14-2009
I agree, but they're pretty much a nuisance where they are, and who wants to stop killing their monster leaving tons of them half-dead because a Rideword jumps you?
I'm not a fan of finding half-dead mobs on maps. Yesterday I went on the Eddga, Ninetail and Dragon Tail map in Payon Forest. I found at least 20 half-dead Ninetails somehow. They had from 500 to 2,000 HP left. I got the drops because the one who dealt that damage was gone. If that person had been there still, I'd be farming items for them.
There are so few in CT2 and CT3, so removing them shouldn't cause a problem right?
CT4 is rightfully hard, Owl Duke/Baron are not meant to be done at lv 70, their toughness and presence of Ridewords is fine, cause it goes with the difficulty.
CT1 is fine cause you usually just pass through going up or going down, and Ridewords are not Demon, so they don't detect hide.
Ironically the easiest way to CT B3 is through CT 3F and taking the "random" warp. CT B1 and B2 are not exactly enchanting places to pass through in comparison.
For example, I have no idea why Arclouze gives so little exp for the difficulty.
1) Their drops are nothing special.
2) They attack fast.
3) They needed decent flee (209).
4) They do high enough damage (570-640 before reductions).
Yet they give, with our rate, 2/3 of their HP worth.
Mavkas (Les on RMS) gives about twice the exp, have more useful about same-value drops, attack slower, and need less flee. They're also earth so vulnerable to fire.
I don't know how Gravity balanced the exp of mobs, it seems only a handful of mobs are worthwhile exp-wise:
Mavka/Les (HP x2.5 base) - weak to fire
Firelock (HP x1.8 base, HP x 1.6 job) - undead
Isis (HP x 2.5 base) - weak to holy
Muka (HP x2 base) - easy to kill
Soil/Mi Gao (HP x 1.5 base) - weak to fire
Anubis (HP x3.6 base) - weak to resurrection (undead)
Hill Wind (HP x2.5 base) - weak to earth
Siroma (HP x1.8 base) - weak to wind
The others have left-overs as if they didn't have enough exp to go around when giving it to the monsters.
Heck, Rideword himself gives HP x0.9 Base exp and he's harder than most of the list above (save maybe Anubis, not silenced, he is pretty hard).