Trial of Heroes July, Sunday 22nd, Feedback Thread

[razoredge]

It's difficult to balance a monster that is super difficult for WS but easy peasey for everything else

I'm late but I just wanted to say this:

It's not that difficult to do this, just time consuming. It's a matter of modifying the script to do a check for character class and for it to pull monsters according to class. However, the problems are scripting, testing, and modifying as needed.

Also you run into: "Well he got X monster and I got Y."

Well that's why the classes are there to be better at killing certain monsters than others.

Also from what I recall, the ToH takes a LOT of time out of a GM's day. So while you may have not won this time, keep trying. I've been to 4 ToH's on different characters and I've only obtained 1 wing. Yea some people may say I stink at it, but I went more for the fun of the event.

[mahawirasd]

oh wow Jan 2006...

well i dunno which TOHs you've been attending, but from the 3 years i've been here, all i've seen is improvement regarding the amount of time GMs have to allocate for executing TOHs. Better maps, reward NPC, automated timers, various scripts, etc.
3 years ago TOHs last 6-8 hours AT LEAST. With another 1-2 needed to distribute gifts/equips, and perhaps another hour or so to tidy things up and file the report.
Nowadays TOHs last 4-ish hours. Then players can just go talk to the rewards NPCs. So even if it takes another hour or so to file reports etc, that's still over 50% reduction in time required.

Now I'm not saying that GMs do not put a lot of time into TOHs, on the contrary i am very grateful that they do and more often than not TOHs are enjoyable (not because they are easy, but because they are appropriately challenging). Nevertheless, i do feel that perhaps some more time spent in prep (especially for monsters) are in order. The first 12 TOHs i participated in felt like very little custom monsters were used, nevertheless there was generally great variety and they are usually quite balanced. They do tend to be somewhat easier for snipers, but usually snipers get a harder time in the 4th and 5th wave.

Nowadays i am seeing more anti-sniper custom scripts/skills added into TOH monsters, as well as more use of quagmires (anti-ws and LK). I feel that his is a good thing, and i feel it's quite normal for most noob snipers to complain that it is pro-WS. Personally i feel that proper TOH WSes do deserve their points because they do have to put a lot of zeny into equips, consumables, and CT-spamming. Nevertheless, in the last year, some TOH monster lineups just seem so carelessly not thought through. Last TOH would have been perfectly appropriate if not for the first wave. Funny thing is, the first wave was customized for lower hp, but it seems someone forgot to also adjust the mob's damage output.

Oh, and the elongated item trials is just genius. It allows for more item combinations, it allows for the averaging of scores (snipers vs non-snipers), and overall it just burns more consumables (which is ALWAYS good for RO servers). Although there is an issue about low drop chances, i feel that the extra time allocated does give you a fighting chance.

TL/DR: good work overall, but please put a bit more thought into the monster lineups.


W

[Former-GM-Circe]

There's farrrr more work in ToH than I think anyone realises. While the time frame may start for you guys at the scheduled beginning time, the GMs have already spent hours recording registrations in order to make PvP lineups, deciding mob waves, making the mobs (if they're custom), testing the mobs (even if not custom), deciding the Item Trial, deciding the trivia, and generally testing the trivia out on some of the GMs that are not participating that week, etcetc.

I know Glyph and I spent hours and hours discussing and deciding and fleshing out the mobs for my ToH back last July. Then he had to spend ages actually making them, and then we both spent a while testing them on various classes.


What we found out that a lot of you don't understand last ToH is that the only guaranteed part about the Monster Trial is the amount of mobs in each wave. Wave 1 does NOT have to be the easiest to pass. While it usually is, it isn't required.
There weren't very many 0s at all for wave 5. That's where it evened out.

Players have a lot of assumptions when it comes to ToH that I know at least Glyph was trying to break.

• That classes will be able to logically beat every wave. One of the decisions you need to make is whether to just run or not. With a max score of like 130, a couple of unbeatable-except-for-the-best run rounds will not detract from a high players score.
  
• Trivia is supposed to be bonus points. So is Mass Battle. You're not supposed to count on them. If you get them, lucky you. Bonus!
  
• I know last ToH I was delighted to actually see so many classes other than Snipers.
  
• You can't expect to walk in and get wings within the first few ToHs. Others are more prepared and more practised than you. Yes, this gives them an advantage, but that's also the price of all the extra preparation, practise and experience they've put in.
  
• Monster doesn't have to go easiest to hardest, and I know I find it ridiculous when people quit after the first wave, because it's harder than what they expected. But then, if wings aren't worth the 10 minutes or so to get to the next wave to see what it's like from there.. that's your issue, not ours.
  

Anddd posting from this account because it just wouldn't work as??a legit post (and Loki did it too. >:O)

[razoredge]

oh wow Jan 2006...

well i dunno which TOHs you've been attending, but from the 3 years i've been here, all i've seen is improvement regarding the amount of time GMs have to allocate for executing TOHs. Better maps, reward NPC, automated timers, various scripts, etc.
3 years ago TOHs last 6-8 hours AT LEAST. With another 1-2 needed to distribute gifts/equips, and perhaps another hour or so to tidy things up and file the report.
Nowadays TOHs last 4-ish hours. Then players can just go talk to the rewards NPCs. So even if it takes another hour or so to file reports etc, that's still over 50% reduction in time required.

Now I'm not saying that GMs do not put a lot of time into TOHs, on the contrary i am very grateful that they do and more often than not TOHs are enjoyable (not because they are easy, but because they are appropriately challenging). Nevertheless, i do feel that perhaps some more time spent in prep (especially for monsters) are in order. The first 12 TOHs i participated in felt like very little custom monsters were used, nevertheless there was generally great variety and they are usually quite balanced. They do tend to be somewhat easier for snipers, but usually snipers get a harder time in the 4th and 5th wave.

Nowadays i am seeing more anti-sniper custom scripts/skills added into TOH monsters, as well as more use of quagmires (anti-ws and LK). I feel that his is a good thing, and i feel it's quite normal for most noob snipers to complain that it is pro-WS. Personally i feel that proper TOH WSes do deserve their points because they do have to put a lot of zeny into equips, consumables, and CT-spamming. Nevertheless, in the last year, some TOH monster lineups just seem so carelessly not thought through. Last TOH would have been perfectly appropriate if not for the first wave. Funny thing is, the first wave was customized for lower hp, but it seems someone forgot to also adjust the mob's damage output.

Oh, and the elongated item trials is just genius. It allows for more item combinations, it allows for the averaging of scores (snipers vs non-snipers), and overall it just burns more consumables (which is ALWAYS good for RO servers). Although there is an issue about low drop chances, i feel that the extra time allocated does give you a fighting chance.

TL/DR: good work overall, but please put a bit more thought into the monster lineups.


W

LOL yea 2006. The first ToH I attended I literrally had to clear my schedule for the entire day. I think it lasted 8+ hours and by the end of it Panda or whichever GM (I believe it was Panda though) was exhausted.

I'm extremely glad about the cut down in time as it helps the GM team spend time working on the other things they need to work on if they can/want to.

Other things they could do is prevent items/constant hp/sp drain. But again requires scripting, testing, more testing, then implementation.

Also, I like the fact that ToH is evolving, still means progress.

[Loki]

There's farrrr more work in ToH than I think anyone realises. While the time frame may start for you guys at the scheduled beginning time, the GMs have already spent hours recording registrations in order to make PvP lineups, deciding mob waves, making the mobs (if they're custom), testing the mobs (even if not custom), deciding the Item Trial, deciding the trivia, and generally testing the trivia out on some of the GMs that are not participating that week, etcetc.

I know Glyph and I spent hours and hours discussing and deciding and fleshing out the mobs for my ToH back last July. Then he had to spend ages actually making them, and then we both spent a while testing them on various classes.


What we found out that a lot of you don't understand last ToH is that the only guaranteed part about the Monster Trial is the amount of mobs in each wave. Wave 1 does NOT have to be the easiest to pass. While it usually is, it isn't required.
There weren't very many 0s at all for wave 5. That's where it evened out.

Players have a lot of assumptions when it comes to ToH that I know at least Glyph was trying to break.

• That classes will be able to logically beat every wave. One of the decisions you need to make is whether to just run or not. With a max score of like 130, a couple of unbeatable-except-for-the-best run rounds will not detract from a high players score.
  
• Trivia is supposed to be bonus points. So is Mass Battle. You're not supposed to count on them. If you get them, lucky you. Bonus!
  
• I know last ToH I was delighted to actually see so many classes other than Snipers.
  
• You can't expect to walk in and get wings within the first few ToHs. Others are more prepared and more practised than you. Yes, this gives them an advantage, but that's also the price of all the extra preparation, practise and experience they've put in.
  
• Monster doesn't have to go easiest to hardest, and I know I find it ridiculous when people quit after the first wave, because it's harder than what they expected. But then, if wings aren't worth the 10 minutes or so to get to the next wave to see what it's like from there.. that's your issue, not ours.
  

Anddd posting from this account because it just wouldn't work as??a legit post (and Loki did it too. >:O)

The deciding on things didn't take me long TBH it's more so the approval process we had because the GM team decided on the fairness. Really when I did a ToH for Panda the thing took me practically 8+ hours. But when I did it we didn't have all the automation that you newbies have lol.

As a GM we simply have to look at what monsters are strong against each class which we know from our legit accounts. For the most part you could (during my time anyways) guess what classes were going to be in ToH so there's no reason why you couldn't for the most have a good idea of what monsters to use.

But I agree, this isn't supposed to be a walk in the park to get. It's supposed to be something you work for not just say OH I'm getting wings today.

[Former-GM-Circe]

I am well and truly old enough to remember 8 hour+ ToHs. I am nowhere near ranking as a "newbie".


And people as a whole, after Ayu, tend to expect custom monsters these days. Not only that, but it keeps things interesting. While you can guess that most people will be snipers, WS or Creators, after so many years, they'd certainly start find it boring fighting the same bunch of mobs that we deem "hard" or "anti" them again and again.
So yes, it's more now than "just approval". We make, we test to see if balanced, we test on various classes with various gears anyway.
We want it to be different, and interesting each time. With 5 mobs per month, you run out of appropriate mobs damn quick.
Even with custom mobs, we need to think of different skill variations to achieve a central desired effect. The same skill set on a different looking mob each month is just as boring.

Nor do I think as much of it is automated as you believe. :X


It DOES still take a lot of backend GM time.

[Loki]

I am well and truly old enough to remember 8 hour+ ToHs. I am nowhere near ranking as a "newbie".


And people as a whole, after Ayu, tend to expect custom monsters these days. Not only that, but it keeps things interesting. While you can guess that most people will be snipers, WS or Creators, after so many years, they'd certainly start find it boring fighting the same bunch of mobs that we deem "hard" or "anti" them again and again.
So yes, it's more now than "just approval". We make, we test to see if balanced, we test on various classes with various gears anyway.
We want it to be different, and interesting each time. With 5 mobs per month, you run out of appropriate mobs damn quick.
Even with custom mobs, we need to think of different skill variations to achieve a central desired effect. The same skill set on a different looking mob each month is just as boring.

Nor do I think as much of it is automated as you believe. :X


It DOES still take a lot of backend GM time.

The original ToH I attended on my legit had practically no automation in terms of prizes and such. But yes I know that it isn't fully automated. And yes I know you can run out of mobs, but the good thing about the server is you can make as many mobs as you want (even though I know requires testing and more time doing server work).

As far as the newbie comment it was more so pointed towards legits than gms

Nothing wrong with the process you have, it's just there has to be a certain value of appreciation for what you did.

[Former-GM-Circe]

I still remember when the prize automation was put in. Hell, I was even GMing myself back when we had to line everyone up politely one by one. And then wait for people to actually make up their minds while everyone else behind tapped their toes impatiently, except for the small group that always sat at the back chatting until the very end.

Yup! And it's those very custom mobs that take up most of the prep work these days. And you try and make things like Gillyweed, and nothing works the way you want, and so you have to make St John's Wart instead, which, while cool, is no Gillyweed.


Gotta admit that last line is confusing me when I'm trying to work out exactly what it means, or if it's aimed at GMs, players, or past GMs, or present GMs, etcetcetc. *thick*

[Loki]

except for the small group that always sat at the back chatting until the very end.

I was one of these

And it's those very custom mobs that take up most of the prep work these days. And you try and make things like Gillyweed, and nothing works the way you want, and so you have to make St John's Wart instead, which, while cool, is no Gillyweed.

Well let me clarify, I don't mean using custom sprites. I mean using the sprites already in class it's just simply modding the stats making sure no drops/etc... But you're right it usually goes: scripting, testing, testing, testing, testing, more testing, then finally implementation. Although I'm not sure what gillyweed was supposed to be lol I have been away a long while :S

Well I said did as in you being former. But it can apply to current GM's too. Players should have a certain appreciation for what's done for them. The problem GM's get most is how the frustration translates to ruining their own mood because of the lack of appreciation, but I remember when out of nowhere I got an pm from lucky day and even from another gm just thanking me for what I did as a gm. It's those things that give you hope.

[Former-GM-Circe]

I don't mean sprites, either. We have enough spriting work we'd like done without using a spriter on ToH mobs. By custom mob, I mean just a mob sprite we already have, with custom stats.

Glyph will know what I mean when I mention Gillyweed for ToH but I doubt anyone else will, because we couldn't get it off the ground skill wise, so it never appeared. It got morphed into St John's Wart instead, which was a holy plant that turned you holy too.