January 2012 ToH Appreciation Thread

[Former-GM-Circe]

I'm not sure how you "wonder why it attached to the GM" while having a go at Glyph for apparently not realising "that there's a very high chance and very logical for the timer to be attached to him as the starter of the wave?"
That's just a huge contradiction. :X


As I explained in the post, we continued with the next wave, because, logically, if the timer was player based, we assumed that there would likely also be something in it to counter that situation. We don't have the script, do we couldn't just look at it and go "Okay, there's not!".


Those lists of players you are mentioning are in the chatlogs. We do not have access to those. When doing checks on them, as well as item logs, for other things, we must request them from Panda. That's the way it is.
DC-crashing wiped our personal chats, as the client closed, obviously, and aside from players who it would be missing on due to guildchat, lane chat, main chat, again, we'd be counting on player honesty to decide who runs again, etc.
The fact that only about half the people who entered wave 3 could get in means that about half the players had already run, and were trying to again, either accidentally, through misunderstanding, or to try and sneak in for more points.. :/



We HAVE been trying to explain. We're being met with NAHUH every step of the way.
We did our best to troubleshoot exactly what could and couldn't be done, and attempt to fix it.
The only alternative to this, that didn't require any troubleshooting, was to cancel either ToH or Monster Trail right there and then, and no doubt that would have probably caused more of a ruckus than this delay.
Troubleshooting was necessary. :/



Really? And just how many of "Glyph's ToH problems" are there?
This one was caused by something that could have been prevented in the script, and as Forge mentioned, was brought up ages ago as something that should be seen to. Thus, Panda was aware that the issue could happen one day.

Glyph did not make the script. Glyph can not add or remove mobs from the database.
If there were no external factors made by anyone else that affected this, ToHs would be Glyph manually summoning official mobs in every lane, one by one.
The issues that occurred stemmed, ultimately, away from anything Glyph had ever seen, made or had control over.


It is NOT part of a GMs job to cop abuse flung every way. Yes, we can accept complaints or disagreements. Those are very different from what was happening during ToH.
We volunteer for this. We don't get paid. Even paid jobs do not have to put up with the level of abuse that happened. What does this say? As a job of any sort, we don't have to put up with it.

We are NOT your punching bags.
As a player, you would not expect to undergo that level of abuse. You would have reported it, and expected punishment to be taken. Likely, in temp ban form.
At least give us the same level of basic respect that most of you feel entitled to and expect from us and the rest of the server.
To be entirely honest, if I was not so busy troubleshooting, or had logged on to see this as GM part way in, I would have been handing out mutes and the such to what I saw. It went wayyy past the line of acceptable.



That's how troubleshooting works. That's what it is. You try things and see how and if they work.
As I mentioned before, troubleshooting was necessary unless you all wanted Monster Trial or ToH flat out canceled.
We didn't know exactly what we were dealing with and we needed to find out.
Only the very, very lucky get their troubleshooting, especially with so little base information, all correct on the first try.



As for the questions, there were ones, like the capital of Antigua that were purely fact. The month I joined GMing is also fact. You can find the month right on my forum join date.
I wanted to stem away from ones that were RO related, to avoid any possible though and confusion that this may be the actual ToH trivia.
The prizes were nothing to do with ToH. First to get it correct was a gold and 2 GBs, and runners up were a few GBs. Nothing to write home about, really.

After that, and all the stress and abuse, my brain was stuttering. I had to try and think of things, that covered everyone, and if no one knew, there was still a chance of someone getting it.
Forge's favorite color IS black, and my favorite flavor of soda IS cream.
... To the point where I've been trying to find a good, homemade recipe for it so that I don't have to spend so much buying it from the store.

[Shinigami l0_0l]

forge told me that the timer attached to the starter GM. From that information, there's a very high chance and very logical for the timer to be attached to him as the starter of the wave. that's it

edit: is it that strange for the timer to be attached to the GM?

and i wonder why they decide to attach it to player instead of NPC, and now, i wonder why glyph got no idea about that?

and i will still wondering if they decide to attach it to the NPC instead of player anyway. so it just curiosity


soo u just start the 3rd wave and pray everything will be alright when next wave activated without chekcing the 2nd wave situation?
why dont u start a blank wave after u got DC/error? soo the 3rd wave player didnt get caught in the chaos? and u dont have to give compensation to anyone this way


and i guess even player knows that chatlog is not that reliable. and i guess make a note about the important things outside the chatlogs is a wise decision. unless if the host think that the line report is not important


i was there and all i got from the GM is like, sorry we're DCed and crash the ToH, without mentioning the the unwise decision made by the host etc etc etc.


how many rage and complaints on glyph ToH so far? just ask the player about this i guess..


and what? u expect player to accept such a thing as "shit happens, get over it" stuff?
no wonder why the respect towards the GM team decreased


meh..
ostrich methods =/= trial and error
praying and hoping the things will works fine is not troubleshooting, especially without checking and analyzing what happened.

u didnt check the 2nd wave situation thoroughly and yet u dare to start the 3rd wave. u called that troubleshooting?
well, u can say that GM is not player punching bag. but the way u do this, it feels like the player is the GM guinea pigs.


is there any documented information about his favorite color and your favorite soda? and can anyone confirm that u actually like it? is there any random scientific way to measure it?
need another reason why i call it silly?

[proto]

Well since all the GM's are fail, maybe hero should be the first server with no GM's at all? I'm sure that would fix all the problems right guys? ^_^
Think about it =O No more fail ToH's... No more poring tames and zombie runs... no more rules... sounds like a dream server =O


OR MAYBE INSTEAD OF WASTING TIME MAKING STUPID HATS THEY CAN MAKE A TIME MACHINE TO GO BACK IN TIME AND FIX TOH BEFORE IT EVEN BROKE =O. Come on??GM's get your priorites straight

[Former-GM-Circe]

Forge was not online at the time. How could he have mentioned it to Glyph while he was not there? He came on later and confirmed it then.
Even if Glyph knew the timers broke, he could not have stopped the DC-crash. He could not have known just how such things were, or weren't handled in the script.
The only way he could have, for certain, avoided all this was by never actually starting anything that was run on a player timer. This means no Monster Trial, No Item Trial. No PvP Fights. No trivia. No Mass Battle. Some ToH. :X


In this case, yes.. It is strange for the timer to be attached by to the GM instead of the NPC.

Glyph didn't make the script. He hasn't seen the script. i haven't seen the script.
*I* did not know it was on player timers until Forge brought it up one time, after he'd seen the script. It's just not something we're told.
Even if we were, that could not have magically stopped the DC-crash.

As for if they change it. I bloody well hope so, if only to spare another GM for the amount of crap Glyph has copped for something that was effectively out of his control.
Glyph did not make the script. Simple as that.


GMs cannot enter a lane as a player unless they are registered. We can enter it as a GM only, via menu option, and should there be any script that activates on player entry (ie, one checking for this very situation), it would not have activated when we entered.
We still would have had to have given compensation to the second wave.??So, in short, the only way to "have to give compensation to anyone" would have been to jsut deny a bunch of players any sort of points.



"and i guess even player knows that chatlog is not that reliable. and i guess make a note about the important things outside the chatlogs is a wise decision. unless if the host think that the line report is not important"
I'm not sure I understand what you mean here. Could you rephrase?


Because you do not agree with it, does not make it incorrect. For one, during all this, YOU have the power of hindsight. The only reason you know that the 3rd wave worked that way was because you were either in it, or because we confirmed that's the way it happened.
Had it had a failsafe that triggered, which was possible, then you wouldn't be saying that line. You only know this because we tested it. None of us knew before it was tested.

On to calling things incorrect and demanding apologies. A few years ago, we had a 36 hour rollback. We implemented a way that players could recover some items they lost. Well after the event, a player had an issue with how this was done, and spewed everywhere in a thread that we were wrong, and we *must* apologise to everyone because HE would have done it another way (or, in his case, nothing at all).
While we understood that he had concerns, we disagreed that we were wrong. We stood by our decision, and while, if it were to happen again, we'd do some things differently, it would not have been his way, we weren't sorry for how we decided to do thing,s and the only reason things would deviate next time would be because we'd gone through it once already and would have that knowledge to act on.


You should know about the abuse. Some of it stemmed from an account very related to yours. Was it you on it at the time? I don't know.


I don't blame Glyph for his response. We've explained, and it's continued on after the event. If anything, the amount of abuse that started directly after the DC stemmed Glyph's want to move on with it. Not the other way around.
Some players seem to have an inability to take anything in stride and to accept that some things happen. This one stemmed from something we could not control, yet it didn't stop some people having a huge heart attack and switching directly to the KILLDESTROY setting.


What we did was troubleshooting. The first step in that is to establish if there will actually be a problem. The only way to do that is to try it. As I said above players cannot enter the lanes as players without registering (ie, opening up the registrations again to everyone). Only a player could have caused the activation of any possible script on player entry to the lane.
Not for a minute would I ever, ever equate the abuse we went through that night to entering a lane and finding 6 mobs instead of 3. I'm not sure how you can even begin to make this correlation.

Once we established that there actually was a problem, we then moved onto other troubleshooting. We did not sit there for the whole time trying to restart the lane over and over on the off chance that "maybe it would work this time".
In order to troubleshoot, you need a base to work off.

If we had not made that first wave, we would not have known what we were dealing with. Can you imagine if we had skipped that first try, and if there HAD been a fix activated in it for these circumstances, and instead we'd spent ages trying to find a fix when it worked all that time?


The trivia was a time burner.
If you can't trust us enough to even state our own favorite color and soda flavor, than there's nothing we can do about that. That's something you need to work out with yourself.

[Deimos]

Shinigami or shall I call you Edea. Could you please make pseudocode to solve the error-handling? this would include everything, I mean everything that might destroy our heRO universe.

You seems very confuse of the system/function running behind ToH, and yet you want to order the coder how to solve the problem..After 5+ explanation from GMs you still don't get what and how the accident happen chronologically or at least roughly, from their point of view of course.

There are some people who whine when they encounter a problem that they might have the knowledge/authority to solve, but there are some people who actually can do something to solve the problem.

So, you are the type who whine all the time or the one who have the capability to help solving the problem? If you don't have the authority to help solve the problem, ever heard of constructive criticism?

GM team consist of individual who voluntarily do the GM obligation and responsibility (eg. kill novices..) They are not professional Game Master/Moderator, most probably they are not highly trained technical individual with certificate, and they are not flawless human with excellent split second analysis and decision making skill. GM team gave the community.. this server, with some flaws.. what about you?

Learn to appreciate.. If you think what's the point appreciating something with numerous flaw, you should come up with something better to show them how to do it. I hope you actually do donate some money to the server with all your demand.

[Former-GM-Circe]

They are not professional Game Master/Moderator, most probably they are not highly trained technical individual with certificate,

Some of us do. Others of us have some coding or scripting in other language bases and used that to learn. Others are completely self taught. Others have none at all.

Apart from the none at all, we all generally take up the server scripting work and coding to get through as much work as we can, and, I guess, so it actually gets done, instead of being passed around over and over in a circle with each GM adding their own personal layout or function preferences, let alone the actual working script.


As Forge mentioned, this particular case had been brought up before, but didn't get changed then. I truly hope it does this time, though I would have preferred preventive measures rather than reactive measures. But c'est la vie.


Anyway, this has gone round and round, and I've outlined the facts and time lines, and I'm afraid my fingers have probably started falling off from the walls of text.

Unless something new and mind breaking comes up, I take the time now to just point back to all our previous posts.
Bottom line is I support Glyph and his decisions and found half the behavior on the day horrible, and hope to never see its kind again.



Killing novices is therapy.

[Firenza]

I'm still very disappointed that Ptah and I didn't get nuked despite screaming out "PINK" multiple times!

[Former-GM-Circe]

Piggies are pink.
Therefore pink = okay?

[Dung]

BTW....be grateful for this error! without this error maybe i can't participate PVP trial...i got black out when item trial started...and if no error there i will be miss pvp trial because of black out....

GM already do their best for this server since this server form i think...
that think happen because of something accidentaly thing happen...no one can judge that it's GM fault.....

remember what GM do for all Heroes for 5 years...it's just a little error and it's accidentaly happen....we cant have this server withtout them!
Hail our GM!

and edea...
if u said GM should can prevent that...why not u can sign a form for be GM and prevent anything error for this server? dont say like you know everything about GM's job.....they know what must they do and they do their best....im sure abou it!

[Shinigami l0_0l]

again... how could u know that and glyph dont know? that's the problem.
how much information given to him to host a ToH?

and again. should i tell u again that the GM made mistake on the error handling decision?


and i know about glyph relation with script. but again, at least, PLEASE TELL HIM HOW IT WORKS! at least make a chart or anything not in script code. explain it to him (or any hosting GM) properly.


ok now we know that u cant enter the warp as player. but, GM can warp inside the combat arena, AT LEAST CHECK WHAT HAPPENED INSIDE and hopefully, clean up as well. please dont tell me that GM cant do that

and is there gonna be another error if there's a player who registered but never coming or not fully join his trial? if yes, why dont the GM register as player as well?

if there's something important on your chatlog, make a note about it. dont rely on chatlog only. unless if the wave report is not important for the GM.


again, if there's an error happened, check the current situation throughly. not only from the sitting player around the central part of the map. i know it's a gambling decision, but again, u didnt check the situation throughly.

if u got DCed, check the post DC situation. check each lane, check the combat arena etc etc.
u said that even if the player ressed but never exit the combat arena, the player will be warped back outside. but in this case, the player still dead and mobs still around which obviously indicates a problem


@deimos
dont bother if u dont read the post throughly..
i never expect to see any omnipotent code/script. and again, that's why GM still need to host the ToH.
but the host dont have complete picture about the script or the way it works, that's the problem

the chronological problem
GM DCed while wave 2 still ongoing, failed to trigger the 2min stop, and they got no idea that the stop trigger attached to the GM (they should know this as a ToH host imo)

GM didnt check the wave 2 condition after DC (this is their problem)

GM use gambling act to start wave 3 and pray that everything will be alright without checking the wave 2 condition

that decision ended up horribly and people start to rage (but hey, why they use wave 3 player as guinea pigs without checking the wave 2 player condition?)

they try to fix the problem which takes time, and decide to do trivia as a time burner (i dont mind doing trivia as a time burner, but with silly question?)