Sugg: Falcon Trigger

[Little Sara]

It's just fun, and it costs less arrows maybe. In TOH where weight is limited, this could matter. In other places where its less important, I'd be disadvantaged.

As I said, I'm not looking to get necessarily the best build, I like to design my own. For example, crit sin used to suck so badly it wasn't funny. Knights and Hunters and Blacksmith all had unique advantages over it, and barely any disadvantage (because the dps difference between low dmg crit and high dmg not crit was in favor of 'not crit' except against very high def mobs like Stalactic Golem).

It's still the build I favored, double-dagger outdamaged me almost 2 for 1, I didn't care.

Now with elemental slotted katars and sinx having adv katar mastery, its somewhat better, the 5 more agi bonus also helps. Still inferior to double dagger depending on mobs (except against high def, or when crit lock is necessary).

Eventually, the way things look, critical looks to be highly boosted, and double-dagger highly nerfed in Renewal. Not something I expected at all, but welcomed nonetheless. Can't say I'm an opportunist as I've done this kind of build for 6 years. I'm speaking of Assassin, my Hunter experience is pretty small so far.

[Aaronock]

Lets not bash builds k? Nobody is bashing anything except Ayantis right now to my knowledge, opinions are opinions.

High vit def/def = Get your Falconer.

Harsh, maybe, bashing...no not really.
Though I do admit calling people stupid is a little over the top and unnecessary

[GM-Ayu]

High vit def/def = Get your Falconer.

Or throw on your Ice Pick!

I prefer my sharpshoot-only build for that (and I do retain 150 dex, so just 10 lower than average sniper builds which I find acceptable in damage, but they DS 1 by 1, I hit all at once with 65% crit rate ;P). Plus, sharpshoot gears is much more affordable than ice pick ;p

As a general statement about crit builds: I think ALL crit build is horrible except maybe sharpshoot dedicated ones, because that one skill retains crits with natural crit bonus, AoE, and doesn't eat up your weapon card slots OR takes a huge dent in str/dex (whichever is your main damage attribute) to get to 60+ crit rate. All other crit... really it's just fun only. Lack of 20% card is such a serious blow to damage output, or going below 100 str/140 dex isn't going to cut it.

If ToH is dragged in the program: just no. ToH is timed and favors massive short bursts of explosive damage. This strongly favors boringly efficient DS spam. ToH heals you after every wave, so items you carry are expected to be used against very tough enemies that you essentially have to pot to regain hp/sp to outlast the monsters. ToH really doesn't tolerate fun builds a lot.

Even as a for fun build... I don't know. I tried a 90 str knight before to be 'efficient' and the 20 str difference is so big compare to standard knight build (110 str) that it gets to the point of frustrating just how slow the killing speed is in grinding. I honestly think that as long as the bow is involved, even a for fun build really needs 130-140 dex for some consistency and just general killing speed so the grind goes faster.

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Like I said before... really the moment you pull out calculations and math, signifying a min-max argument, people will jump to you to treat it as a serious build. If it's not serious, generally people just throw stats as they feel like it and not worry about whatever potential "but this is 40 damage more!" type of stuff. So really, both sides of Ayanatis and Sara be mindful about being sensible to each other's connotations either, while at the same time, don't provoke each other (directly or indirectly) anymore.

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As for renewal: who cares?

We're obviously NOT on renewal right now. Argue about it afterward when it's there.

(plus, if all things go wrong in renewal, ask the wanderer to give you a +16 all stat song, and with blessing, +26 all stat. That shows how great is the difference between current and renewal mechanics, and how different the future will be to even bother discussing renewal builds right now until we get there. And that's what, year 2056, give or take a few decades?)

[Aaronock]

Ayu, 90 str knight? Lol, I haveta ask, what was the build intending to do?

[Little Sara]

(plus, if all things go wrong in renewal, ask the wanderer to give you a +16 all stat song, and with blessing, +26 all stat. That shows how great is the difference between current and renewal mechanics, and how different the future will be to even bother discussing renewal builds right now until we get there. And that's what, year 2056, give or take a few decades?)

Cause they implemented Wanderer? Haven't seen it on iRO wiki's kRO Sakray Renewal discussion except in "speculation". Only 3-2 out is Shadow Chaser. All skills have been tweaked 2-3 times after the class was out, compared to initial drafts of skills.

And that's at best late 2009 early 2010, and at worst 2011. Not 2056.

If ToH is dragged in the program: just no. ToH is timed and favors massive short bursts of explosive damage. This strongly favors boringly efficient DS spam. ToH heals you after every wave, so items you carry are expected to be used against very tough enemies that you essentially have to pot to regain hp/sp to outlast the monsters. ToH really doesn't tolerate fun builds a lot.

With a limit to how much you can carry, for the whole 8 hour long event, you can bring enough SP items? Start at 80% weight?

[GM-Ayu]

Cause they implemented Wanderer?

Yes they did. They can even force activate everyone in range to use LK's frenzy too. And a few other stuff that will make no sense at all without renewal. *laughs at <censored>RO to see how are they going to live this one of having 3rd classes while keeping current mechanics*

And that's at best late 2009 early 2010, and at worst 2011. Not 2056.

2056 is already an optimistic number.

And if you still don't understand what I mean, just ignore it then heh. heRO culture humor.

With a limit to how much you can carry, for the whole 8 hour long event, you can bring enough SP items? Start at 80% weight?

Like I said, you are fully healed by the end of each wave for the monster trial. Not using up your SP is really not putting the "free SP recovery" at the end of each wave to good use. Again, just like WoE, ToH strongly favors explosive damage over (traditional definition of) DPS.

You don't start at 80% weight.

You want to start at 89.999994% weight.


Auto blitz depending hunter in ToH setting is really not going to be very great, as you said so yourself. Like I said in all my posts within this thread, ToH doesn't really tolerate fun builds, but demands a lot out of burst damage builds. ToH wants the fastest amount of damage dealt in the shortest time possible. Waiting for the falcon to come out isn't going to be as fast or explosive in damage compare to just spamming the DS button time after time.

Sharpshoot is really the only other hunter/sniper build with 'potential' to survive in monster trial, though the new ToH map we have lately actually hinders it significantly. The lanes are no longer straight as it bends, making it really hard to mob the monsters together for sharpshoot to kill in a straight line. New narrower paths make it hard for the sniper to dance during sharpshoot cooldown or kite the leftovers... so sadly I do have to say, sharpshoot's future in ToH isn't looking very good due to the map layout changes.

[Little Sara]

Yes they did. They can even force activate everyone in range to use LK's frenzy too. And a few other stuff that will make no sense at all without renewal.

They implemented it on some eAthena servers you mean, going just with the partial skill descriptions gathered and translated from Korean by people of drafts of skills?

That's what the few servers who have 3rd class do, they get 3rd classes with non-working skills or with skills using mechanics of 3 months ago on official test servers. And yeah, they use it with current game mechanics, as in not Renewal ones, which is broken.

You have mobs of 50 monsters waiting to jump you in TOH? I know it's only two minutes, so I don't think it's reasonable for most classes to have so many 10,000 HP mobs to kill in such a short time. I know a EDP assassin would be short of time, even with godly gear and 4x 20% specialty jur and 200% elemental damage with converter if that's the case.

Grimtooth is nice, but it's situational, only works okay with non-detectors, whom you can hit decently, and who don't have high def. Meteor Assault is not a skill to spam, even with SP items, it's main use is pvp/woe, to inflict statuses, as its quite weak. Any other assassin skills or tactics are single target, unless you have a Baphomet carded weapon. Sonic Blow is nice, but very costly (3 times the cost of DS) for somewhat weak damage.

A sage is stuck with mostly single-target skills. Same for super novice, but I heard some have had 70 points (at 99, for SN). Consider a falconer to be a single target skill user. My build is also not as extreme as the build proposed by Cheesecake earlier in the thread. It can do decent DS damage, it can do decent Sharpshoot damage, it can do decent Falcon Assault damage, if needed.

I'm afraid of going with 89.9% weight, as my first kill will get me overweight and I can't drop anything, talking to the NPC in the middle of the room and I have time to die.

[GM-Ayu]

Yes they did. They can even force activate everyone in range to use LK's frenzy too. And a few other stuff that will make no sense at all without renewal.

They implemented it on some eAthena servers you mean, going just with the partial skill descriptions gathered and translated from Korean by people of drafts of skills?

I mean, the official info for ministrel/wanderer is out-out... future wiki ro, as always.


As for the other ToH related arguments regarding the validity of falcon builds in ToH, I suggest you to join and play ToH to see how it actually works before going on inaccurate theories... I see plenty of misunderstanding regarding how ToH works in the paragraph that shows how there's a lack of personal experience of ToH first hand. For example, how 50 monsters apparently jump on you is totally beyond me >>; you fight 10 of the same monsters in the first wave, then 7 of the same, then 5, then 3, then 1. This is unless the chosen monster has slaves, and even then, slaves being significantly weaker makes them pretty easy to clear.

You aren't required to use @autoloot within the monster section of ToH. It's only required in item trial section (which follows after monster toh, in which case a good half of your items should be used up and thus gives you weight for items again.)

I think most players walk into disappointment and defeat in their first ToH because it's hard to have a really accurate picture of what ToH is like, and some things you really have to see for yourself as you can't theorize everything (especially the location of item trial npc and how some of the NPC really rambles beyond your belief just how much time can the NPC waste before she stops talking only to stumble into a trap that she will repeat everything she says AGAIN if you click enter-spam too fast, or how the layout of the lane itself plays into helping your or hindering you. Current new layout helps BB and grimtooth significantly, while totally destroying sharpshoot and makes GC very irritating to use well. The narrowness factor changes a lot of things into subtle ways that you won't know until you are there.)

[Little Sara]

10, 7, 5, 3, 1 sounds okay then.

If I do as someone has calculated above: 3000 dps unbuffed, 2 minutes gives me a potential of 360,000 damage done. But let's say I waste some for traps, moving around etc and only have 90 seconds of shooting. It's still 270,000 damage.

So how would my falconer-hybrid build fail so badly?

I mean, the official info for ministrel/wanderer is out-out... future wiki ro, as always.

True but the skill tree doesn't even exist yet, so I don't know where that +16 all stat skill came from. I just went on iRO wiki to read the Minstrel/Wanderer speculation thread, and that's from people who play on kRO Sakray Renewal.

[GM-Ayu]

So how would my falconer-hybrid build fail so badly?

One of those cases where like what I said to your other thread: math has limitation to real life application.

Both players' calculation assumes that you are always attacking and not waste time doing other things. You are assuming that you always got the proper weapon, which more than often you do NOT (probably only the proper elemental arrow) Calculation although done on a monster with high def, goes on the assumption that every other monster that ToH can possibly throw at you won't debuff you, status you, or disrupt your attacks in one form or another. You assumed that the player is at optimal performance and won't screw up (ToH easily does that to you by having custom monster against you and you loses the familiarity and starts to panic, or seeing a totally unexpected challenge and again panics, etc etc... plenty of reasons) It also assumes that you are going against what you are best at: high def slow moving monsters. That's the best case scenario for you compare to other archer since you favor high def.

ToH has many fast balls thrown at you that it'll demand flexibility out of you against less than ideal situations. Using last month for example, wave 3 were 5 kobold leaders. You "can" sharpshoot them to rid the mob (low hp, sharpshoot should OHKO), start attacking the main with your attacks, repel if they're too close. All fine and dandy in theory.

Most snipers died or only got 5. Pure passive giant ball of kobolds charging at you, most didn't think to sharpshoot. Or, you can't do it in time to so perfectly repel the monster, or get stunned by shield charge (and die), or just not familiar with what's kobold leader's element. Some of these you can prepare before hand, and some you just have to see if it affects you the same way when you are there.

Even if you aren't affected, see how you have to use a lot other skills to stay alive and arent just attacking your main target. All of this is lowering your 'optimized dps' calculation. Your real damage is usually a lot lower in ToH due to all uncertain factors related.

Hybrid means, to be able to do everything a bit, but not the best at it. If it's a single monster, you can still DS but not fast enough. Last wave monsters, sometimes even dedicated DS build isn't killing fast enough to make it out on time. It may be ghost in which case you lose a HUGE part of your build, and RO ghosts are mostly minibosses. Against high def monsters you can hold, but against high vit monsters in quantity (like last month's gajomart round early on, destroyed a lot of snipers), you aren't as fast as dedicated sharpshoot that is especially geared to kill multiple monsters efficiently (mostly due to no sniping suit with expert rings to minimize the cooldown). Auto blitz also divides damage against quantity, and again due to narrow path, auto blitz only hitting one monster, chance of that happening is slim. Your damage is almost always be divided. Divided damage means the same to the math since the sum of total dished out damage is same, but again spread out damage means the monsters are staying alive longer and thus more time for them to screw you over. DS doesn't have this problem except for misclick. DS hits one target at a time, and they do it fast using their offense as their own defense. (eg. Maya purple in round 5. DS never hits the mob so purple won't re-mob, but blitz beat runs this risk and ends up making the matter worse. Faster you kill purple the less likely she stabs you 20 cells away with brandish, along with the arclouze mob beating you away.)

Calculation relied on one monster target at a time. In real application, doesn't always work out that way as slaves or other monsters being so close to each other (because of the narrowness) changes the nature of blitz beat into damage over time, rather than controlled explosive damage like DS. (sharpshoot has the same problem as your build, which is why i said future for sharpshoot in toh looks bad).

DS build is flexible. The only time you really need aoe in ToH, an undedicated sharpshoot is usually enough. The thing that DS is weak against the most, high def monsters, are rare, and you can brute force your way through because DS can still do like 1400 damage against high def, or falcon assault for like 4k damage even if their int is only like 20. On the reverse if you have to deal with your worse match up (ghosts, which are common miniboss element), you don't just lose part of your damage, you lose everything from falcon. DS is certain, requires little or no reliance on any luck factor (no matter how much you raise a percentage of skill activation, it's still a chance and not a certainty.) They use up their spare stat from agi/dex into vit to actually stay alive if their flee fails, and resist some common status (again something your build seems to have little of, and green potion doesn't fix everything... or using green pot is a form of delay itself). They take less of a hit if they have to change equipment compare to your build to fight particular monsters, and I don't mean only switchng the bow. Sometimes you need to swap to stun reduction, or elemental armors/mantles. Their flee is often higher than yours (whisper vs morrigane) so they got survivability in that regards. True you got lucky dodge in return, but again certainty/control vs uncertainty/luck. Outside of ToH, the option to party and mvp are still there. Even for your 'small party situation' you still find your way to high end dungeons as well.

Doesn't mean not being as good as DS means you can never get the 70 point for wings. You probably can. But to get the 100+ area though... I certainly have reserves.

True but the skill tree doesn't even exist yet, so I don't know where that +16 all stat skill came from. I just went on iRO wiki to read the Minstrel/Wanderer speculation thread, and that's from people who play on kRO Sakray Renewal.

My mistake. Harmonize is a +13 all stat not 16. iROwiki you said? well here it is?

http://forums.irowiki.org/showpost.php?p...stcount=17




Why did I even go on and on for off tangent related materials >>; blah.

Thread talks of adding this part of a skill. GM team said, "we'll add it when eA adds it." Nothing more to discuss really. If there needs to be more talk about auto blitz vs all other sniper builds, let's start a new thread from then on.