BG/WoE/PvP Fixes and incentives.

[ChrisJ951]

Some of these suggestions may seem rather radical for the way the server operates but PLEASE hear them out and listen to them. Currently WoE/BG are not very large compared to other servers but that can easily be fixed and incentives can be added to solve these problems.

ADD A WARP TO BG. Sitting in the top of izlude is a very odd place for new players. A warp there would make it more obvious and would allow newer people to immediately recognize that this server has BG. Or better yet make it it's own map.

MAKE BG FREE, or at least return the zeny spent to get in if they remain through it. Why does BG cost money anyways? This only turns away new players.

To begin, IMPLEMENT THE OTHER BGs AND REMOVE the 1hour delay/BG Keys. Currently BG is not ran enough. There is absolutely no reason to have BG be run only once an hour, unless someone has a key. BG is something that should be automatically activated when enough people wish to play it. Have a chat setup that automatically activates BG when a certain number of people are there (preferably 6~8+).
Secondly, add the glorious equips in return for less BG points.(http://ratemyserver.net/index.php?iname=...rch=Search).
This will allow new players to be given a chance, and even older ones the ability to play new classes without the consistent grind. It will encourage more people to play BG/WoE without getting destroyed or having to spend days and weeks hunting even the most basic of gears. It will also give those who play it more of the challenge they've been looking for and breathe more life into WoE/BG To prevent these from ruining the economy for PvM and other gears, force it so they double damage from NON demi human monsters. This will make sure there whole use IS ONLY FOR BG/WoE/PvP.

PREVENT TEAM STACKING IN BG. While equips will always make a difference, teams of only Defense/Healer type characters should not always be on the same side. Simply group the players by class, and role. (At least the obvious ones since it is true people play their classes differently.) This means randomly add a priest to each team one at a time. Separate classes into support/attackers/magic attackers. If there are ever two of the same class, MAKE SURE THEY ARE ON DIFFERENT TEAMS. This will at least give each side a better feeling that they'll at least stand a chance. Nobody wishes to play as a HP/Hwiz/LK team against a bunch of EDP SinX/Champs/Snipers.

ADD MORE MATERIALS TO BG. Grinding for materials is never fun, and leads to people just not WoEing or BGing. Nobody likes to have to hunt, find the materials, and a creator to make slim whites for them, and nobody likes playing against a team full of potion spammers without any of their own. Make it easter to get BG/WoE Slim white potions, blue potions, elemental endowers, EDP Bottles,FCP Bottles, AD Bottles and even possibly items to be used in place of CT when on WoE/BG Maps. This creates a far more fun experience where not everyone instantly dies, people are given incentive to WoE/BG and wont have to grind for zeny/items all day to do so.

I honestly believe these suggestions will make a far more fun experience for players, while still keeping PvM active and creating more people wanting to BG and WoE. Feel free to critisize or add your own points but this, at least in my opinion, will at a lot more life into this server.

Note:
Someone in main said creating automated events will just cause people to autostart BG and cheat it. This makes no sense for the reason that there would be no incentive to. The items given would ONLY work in BG/WoE and thus why would you cheat to get BG items if you're not going to BG.

Also, please no "This argument is old." All you're doing is perpetuating that none of the older players or GMs care. If there are valid reasons against things, state them. Until then it just seems like a play to by those who currently hold power, to remain in power.

[Gojira]

You must be new here good sir....

[ABlueJelly]

Lol Gojira XD


Honestly, putting this stuff in could really only help the situation currently, as the gear divide is ginormous. How do I know this?

Back when I was with KoJ, Chaos Prince was pretty much the only other "regular" at BG in KoJ other than my linker.
On top of this, it was generally the same people in Behe just coming on different charas.
DoE was really the only guild that would actually do BG. And looking at how hard DoE tends to dominate WoE... Well there you go.

But here's the problem. Making BG free now would be a kick in the pants to all of us that have already BG'd??lot as well as remove one of the few "zeny sinks" (even if it is a minor one) on this server.



Oh, and as for BG gears in PvM, basically only the accessories and weapons are useful in PvM to begin with (as the glorious set has 0 def and the other sets take bonus damage from non-demihuman). And even then, only the +1 all stats ring is a +stat item; the MoH's are +HP and % atk/matk, and the rings are just ele resist. Of the weapons, only the mage and priest ones are really useful anywhere but Biolabs, the alternate for the priest's is flooded here (SoR; every priest seems to solo anubis), and the good alternates for the magic users (SoP, Survivor's, and RW) have no BG equivalent.


EDIT: Nobody has that mythical thing of awesome from the top of Endless, reason I didn't list it. Our Bones are OP

[Adrillf]

So um. . . first things first

http://pandoraonline.net/forum/showthread.php?tid=20626


Next thing-
in the order that you brought things up, the answer that you might (and will most likely get)

warp to bg- no, there's already a warp to izlude, walking north is not hard to do

free bg- no, bg is always going to involve money, always.

use the normal bg's- no, it doesn't work for our server, and the GM's have decided many times over that they don't like the classic bg's and have decided to use their own custom version.

Modify bg to prevent stacking- bleh, coding upon coding with more coding. If you're willing to write the code to that book length of checking gear, quantifying it, and then most likely the GM's will still say no. Random groupings have always been random, and they want it that way.

I don't want to grind for items modify something for me- QQ, you poor thing. It's a low rate server, get use to the grind.

The shortest version that I can give to these suggestions is this; people have asked/suggested these before- the answer is no.

[ChrisJ951]

warp to bg- no, there's already a warp to izlude, walking north is not hard to do

At least make some indication that BG is north of the warp, the announcer says no such thing. Also adding a warp is not hard to do either.

free bg- no, bg is always going to involve money, always.

This is stupid and gives no reason. In response to ABluejelly, there needs to be a point in which older players allow newer ones to come a flourish. RO is a changing game still despite trying to be stuck in the past. Plus in this way of thinking the older broken customs should be implemented for new players in favor of fairness. Realistically though, Older players have already had to deal with giving up +7~9 Mants/Mufflers in favor of newer things such as tidals/wool/diablo/proxy so it's not like this is new or unfair. Also would you say newer dungeons such as thor, nameless, and any new ones which will come out in the future should not be implemented? It makes it easier for newer people to level so it must not be fair.

use the normal bg's- no, it doesn't work for our server, and the GM's have decided many times over that they don't like the classic bg's and have decided to use their own custom version.

How does this not work for our server? Ive seen this repeated quite a few times with no real reasons or logic worked into the response. Classic bg's are clearly in favor (look at other servers, especially seeing as how their populations more than quadruple ours in some instances).

Modify bg to prevent stacking- bleh, coding upon coding with more coding. If you're willing to write the code to that book length of checking gear, quantifying it, and then most likely the GM's will still say no. Random groupings have always been random, and they want it that way.

There is not much code for this nor did I say for gear or quantifying it. Class based stacking is all I care about. Just make a simple array with a slot dedicated to each class. If any slot has more than 1 then keep putting them on opposing teams until down to 1. Then randomize the rest. It wouldn't be hard to have a seperate system where it seperates based on attacker/defender/healer for the ones down to 1.

I don't want to grind for items modify something for me- QQ, you poor thing. It's a low rate server, get use to the grind.

This is a shallow and stupid response with no logical argument in it. You still do have to grind for pve gears, for leveling, and focusing on parties. Creating a more fun BG/WoE does not interfere with your love for this grind. Hell you still can if you want. (This isn't even going into how grinding is clearly on the way out, and how in renewal basic equips are given to you). Questing is still required and those who grind will still be rewarded for higher +'d gears, for mvp and mini boss cards, and grinding BG is just another form of a grind if you wish to think of it that way. But we might as well make it so you have to 99 off porings right?

[Snowhawk]

Old argument is old. Answer will most likely be no.

[ABlueJelly]

Directions to it:
Total meh, you can always "@main where is BG" and get 5 responses within 15 seconds telling you where it is. If you don't have the ability to ask for help, you're probably too proud to intelligently follow a team strategy in a team-based PvP event.
Trust me, I'm a League of Legends player.

Free:
New content and nerfs to OP things are not the same as buffs to old things.
We used to have a lot of insane zeny-farming things, which is part of the reason this server has so much old-zeny on it to where Sui temp-quit and nuked Nobility with somewhere close to 1b to try to cull some of the z from the server. The last thing we need is to remove one of the only zeny sinks that is actively used by the PvP crowd. Not only this, but 50k is pretty low. Once you get bee wings (which every new player on this server should try to do) you can make at least 1m per hour pretty much everywhere that doesn't require specific armor- even my non-99 prof does so at Goats. This server has plenty of ways to make zeny, people just don't really go for them.

Normals:
Have you seen the state of WoE on this server? On top of this, Normal BG is designed for a LARGER population of people who ARE INTERESTED in pvp. There's still cases of BGs getting canceled due to lack of attendance. While setting it so they happen when there's enough people there would be nice, it'd make it too easy and fast to get BG items. If you haven't yet noticed, this server does not allow multi-leveling or dual clienting or botting. What do these all have in common? They all support less work for more.

Script Change:
You say it's easy. And I agree, the algorithm is easy. Try implementing it. You'd be surprised as to how difficult something can get depending on the language in use.

Anti-Grind:
This argument is the standard boiled-down version of most people's explanations of why they want X to be cheaper or Y to be more common. It has a lot of logical argument behind it, because if you have to work for your PvM gears, why should you get your PvP gears for free? PvP and PvM gears are on the same level on this server, and catering too hard to one of them would be kind of a bad idea.

[ChrisJ951]

Normals:
Have you seen the state of WoE on this server? On top of this, Normal BG is designed for a LARGER population of people who ARE INTERESTED in pvp. There's still cases of BGs getting canceled due to lack of attendance. While setting it so they happen when there's enough people there would be nice, it'd make it too easy and fast to get BG items. If you haven't yet noticed, this server does not allow multi-leveling or dual clienting or botting. What do these all have in common? They all support less work for more.

Anti-Grind:
This argument is the standard boiled-down version of most people's explanations of why they want X to be cheaper or Y to be more common. It has a lot of logical argument behind it, because if you have to work for your PvM gears, why should you get your PvP gears for free? PvP and PvM gears are on the same level on this server, and catering too hard to one of them would be kind of a bad idea.

I would argue WoE and BG are lame on this server because of how much time, gear, and materials people need for it. I would assure you more people would BG if it were free, and they could get items for it. As it stands now it takes far too long to get enough points to get anything useful from it, and the only way to get equips from it in a faster manner is to spend tons of zeny on materials. Materials which could be provided for BGing at a much lower cost.

You would still have to grind BG to get items for it, but it wouldn't be an effort it futility, which is how it currently stands. Catering to PvP gears would ONLY improve pvp. People wouldn't complain about how they have no items and thus don't BG (making it free and easier to get the equips and items fixes this, and prevents it from being canceled). People wouldn't complain that their is no consumables being used in BG/WoE. It would be a much more competitive environment overall and far more enjoyable for those who do have equips, and those who need them.

By your very question of "Have you seen the state of WoE on this server?" means we need to improve it and make it better. If we make items easier for people to get in WoE, then WoE will be better. If the guilds will actually be equipped, then it creates more of a challenge and competitive event. Simply saying it sucks now doesn't help in anyway, and keeping the system as it is now does not either.

Also i'm not saying to make it free, but after a days worth of BGing people should be able to obtain the gears for their class so long as theyre active. As it stands now it'd take over a month if not longer, and most people aren't going to invest that (hence "Have you seen the state of WoE on this server?")

I would take a look and post scripts if i believed they'd be used, but until then I wont waste my time.

[Former-GM-Circe]

1] I know this was suggested at some point... I think. I might be making things up. If it were to be added, I imagine it'd be a specialist warp, like WoE or the churches, and thus, cost more to poor newbies, too! :D
I'm totally big on people having to take the smallest initiative on their part for somethings. Asking where BGs is is one of these.
Off topic, another is to actually try looking at the quest yourself instead of yelling for a GM all over main claiming it is bugged/broken if it doesn't exactly match your guide, or you missed a step.

2] To be completely honest, I don't find 50k much in the first place. Once you're at a level to be able to BG, pretty much every class should have a way to easily pick up that sort of funds, if they don't somehow have it already.
It's only a slight sink, but one we do need. :X

3] As it is, we're not technically on a BG SVN. The current mapflags for the BG we do have, for instance, are a Frankenstein of ones that are actually available to try and make something close and workable for BGs. This is why it has some little "quirks" to it, like being able to see those annoying pink triangles.
Once we get a new SVN (and you all the lovely T&Ders get to listen to me rage at things, looking at you Sealed Shrine, last update) then we should be able to not only have official BG mapflags, but also maybe (hopefully, imo) implement other BGs.
But this does come down to whether there will also be the demand to actually run them. Lots of BGs at the moment don't run in the quieter hours.

I think, at this time the keys do easily cover the times where there are a bunch of people wanting to BG it up, and I know I personally have no qualms in starting a bunch of extra ones.??Keys also have the upside of the user getting guaranteed entry, which is decent motivation to use them.

4] Post by Salt.
http://pandoraonline.net/forum/showthrea...#pid247952


5] WoE already has a bunch of pots and that that can be bought for points. The list is slowly being expanded to even include gears to help players at lower levels get into WoE and stuffs.
Yup. This one is a lazy reply. Not much to say to it other than "WoE points list is still an active WIP, and someone suggested these for BG points, and there was a discussion on the forums about that and stuff."



As for the automated events and the ability to start BGs:
Automated events do not lock you in. You can always log off the novice and onto whatever char you want to BG on.
It's up to that player to decide which is worth their time. The event and its rewards, or the BG points.
We do expect players to be able to make up their own minds. We're not just going to run only one thing ever, just to stop it potentially clashing with other optional things. >.>



These "maybe you should script it for them then!" claims always make me nervous.
I always imagine all these little players running out and putting all this work into a script and then giving it to us and us saying "Sorry. But we can script. That's not always the reason why something is not in." and then have to explain some priorities or other sides, or the fact that we just don't want it in some cases to them while they feel all down and have gone to all that work. D:

Please, if you ever are going to script something to give to us, always ask a GM about it first, or send in a support ticket. Because I don't want you potentially wasting your time and the such.

... And it'd make me feel bad if we had to say "Sorry you've put in all that work, but we're just not interested in this."

[ABlueJelly]

+1 to Circe =P

As to why I say "how about you script it", I only do it when someone starts claiming it's easy and would take no time. Being a CS major, I know that it always sounds easier than it really is, especially when you're restricted into a specific language. My most recent CS class is Asm based, and another language I'm good with is TI-BASIC, I'm well-versed in the thought that can go into implementation when the language is limited (like all every single game script is). This isn't Python. You can't just give it pseudocode and have it go "I KNOW WHAT YA MEAN".


With what's in the works for woepoints, the basic stuff is gonna be out for those- and that's free to get. HP and SP pots are both available from Woepoints, and both in nice, vast quantities. Considering how empty two of the three castles are for the majority of woe, it is pretty easy to farm up a ton of them.

As to the ease of getting them, BG gears are quite easy to get no matter what you do, they just take time. Just like farming cards and MvPs. Just like farming quest mats. Just like making lv4 weapons. Just like all these other PvM pursuits. The difference? The items from it do not need to be farmed from a monster that is camped on a two-hour respawn timer. It's a one-hour timer that can be reset more frequently using keys.

The point is, this server was designed based on a lot of >work<, and doing these things would kinda go against that. You make them sound like they're unobtainable, and yet, that soul linker of mine has earned herself a full Glorious armor set (800 points), a MoH for my esma linker (400 points), and is now working on the Warlock set and weapon for my wizy. Just like farming a card, persistence and patience are key.