WoE Changes Official Poll 2017

[GM-Ayu]

This is (yet another) official poll for players to voice their opinions on upcoming changes that may happen to heRO's WoE scene. Please vote on your opinions regarding the possible WoE changes. Please vote on both topics by selecting one of the poll options.

Please discuss in the posts below to explain why you select your specific choice, and other information regarding some potential changes and future of heRO WoE.


EDIT: I will keep this up until the 18th. I believe that should be adequate time for everyone to be aware of this potential change and vote.


1) Castle Closure

Do you think that heRO should remove one trans castle, such that we will be down to Wed trans WoE, and retro WoE on weekend?

Note: for implementation details regarding this change, please read below.

2) WoE Time Change

Do you think that heRO should change the 2 Sunday WoE from their current time slot, to have trans WoE at server time Saturday 11:00AM server time, and Saturday 1:00 PM server time for retro WoE?

Note: If the trans castle is going to be closed, then retro WoE will take place on Saturday 11:00AM server time instead.





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Other news about WoE:

War Point Shop

In terms of new WoE related items, GM team will be adding War Glistening Coat and War Speed Potion to the war points shop. This should reduce the frustration of farming these wartime consumables. Speed Potion will most likely be sold at 20 points for a box of 10. War Glistening Coat will most likely be same price as War Acid Bottle. Edit: Removed Glistening Coats due to technical issues implementing it.

We may do other changes to the war point shop, such as a better UI, and adjusting the prices for some items to make it less frightening to get the consumables used in war or be slightly easier to get basic war gears to participate. However, the exact price change is being discussed and nothing is set in stone.

Castle Rotations

Whenever the next Castle Rotation is happening, it will be shortened to a 3 month basis instead of half year. We will continue the same rule for how to rotate castle such that castles retain ownership and economy investment.

Rotation will take place sometime in Jan, April, July, and Oct of a year.

This change for Castle Rotation will happen independently of any other potential WoE related changes.

Castle Closure?

*IF* the community decides that a castle should be closed, then we will announce it a month in advance (4 weeks, 8 woe dates) to minimize bias or unfairness against who is holding the castle. heRO has closed castles before. We will handle it in the exact same way as the last time we closed castles.

WoE SE vs FE

As mentioned before in the discussion thread, this is on the table but I do not want to convert/add Second Edition for now due to technical concerns without Ciar's present. I personally would like SE, but we'll see if Ciar can return to us in time before we consider pressing forward with this without his presence.


"WoE will still be dead in heRO as GM did not do [regurgitate something from the 2007/2010/2011/2012/2014 poll] and instead we get this half-assed crap."

WoE is too boring.
WoE isn't competitive enough.
We need to close castles.
We need to open castles.
I want more compensation for WoE-ing.
WoE is unfair for new players.

We won't please everyone. We are well aware that pvp is consistently rated as the absolute worse aspect in heRO.

I'm sure there will be good (and bad) posts with other suggestions on what else we can do to "fix" the "super broken beyond repair for a decade" WoE scene. For now, I'll like to only focus on castle numbers, and woe times. I did go through the major classical threads from 2010-2016 to do some catching up on the common complaints about war. But let's address one thing at a time with incremental changes, and I've decided to start off with what Ciar has started first.

[The Legendary Joe]

As the current time schedule makes me unable to woe (even if I wanted to), the earlier time slot on saturdays at least gives me a chance to attend without conflicting with my Real life work.

While I'm not a fan of WoE in general, I do feel it's a requirement to participate (or otherwise adequately support the guild, though that opens up a whole nother can o worms of what is adequate) if one wants to enjoy the benefits of the Guild Dungeons.

Seeing as how I'm usually working when WoE is going on, I can't be sure, but it seems like there's really only 1 guild atm who even really woes. If one guild is dominating all of the open castles without much, if any, competition, what's the point of keeping multiples open?

[Plant]

I'll go with what Oka said on castle closure. To add to what was said, requiring to guard 3 castles every week when almost no one is going to bother is also a tiring effort for the dominating guild.

Though most likely that we'll close a trans WoE castle (if any castle is even closed at all), leaving Retro as the weekend WoE,
can we change it so that trans WoE is the weekend WoE instead?

I'd rather see people get access to the better WoE mode during weekend instead a WoE mode that forces you to never progress your character past non-trans 99 and make gears with much obscure use outside of the proclaimed retro WoE that is not even true retro anymore with new gears pumping in over the years. This is coming from an idiot who almost always bring an SN with an Elemental Sword or a level 20 baby Novice with 4-5k max HP to retro WoE which shouldn't be possible in "retro WoE".

Or else just move both WoEs to weekends / Friday night because Wednesday night servertime is awkward for the rest of the world.

[GM-Ayu]

can we change it so that trans WoE is the weekend WoE instead?

This is something we may do in the future, but it won't be in the scope of this current change. *IF* we close a castle, we will still close the trans one first, then later on do another poll to see if there's interest to swap the time slots of wed trans woe with weekend retro woe.

IF we close a castle at all.

[Aaronock]

I thought hard on the choice to make but seriously at the end...eh, I kinda don't care beyond the fact I think retro woe sucks here. >_>

And since Retro WoE removal isn't on the table I guess that choice becomes the most important one. None of the other changes will affect whether I participate more or not.

[GM-Ayu]

*bumps to remind people about the poll*


I will keep this up until the 18th. I believe that should be adequate time for everyone to be aware of this potential change and vote.

[Keegan]

------- WOE SE ----------

IMO at the current time I don't think our server could support WoE SE. I have played with it on another small server and after it was finally balanced to match the population, it became more of a numbers (of players) game the FE is currently. This cause the server to be even more divided that it already was, as new player were picked up by one of the two woeing factions. Then often scared off by how competitive woe had become.

But if we has a small serge of new players I would suggest we look at it. if we had another guild come along like Infinity Circuit (if I recall the name correctly) from last summer. They could breath new life in to woe and make WoE SE viable.




-------- WoE FE ---------

As for FE its always seemed to be a bit of a drag on the servers I have played on. I don`t think it is a well designed GvG event (at least not in FE form). If you have a castle, you`re sitting waiting for an attack which often does not come till the last 15 mins (if it comes). If your attacking your often trying to take the Emp room and then break in the last 15.

How to change that I have no clue. SE is for sure more entertaining to play but I don't think that it is a good move at this point in time.



------- other -------

Perhaps Player vs Monster type woe. Where the whole server defends against or attacks an army of Monsters in a guild castle. Where all who participate receive some rewards (possibly only if successful). I would keep the monsters still be demi-human as its a woe-like event. This would also hopefully get the server to work together, allowing more interaction between guilds, and hopefully in general make the server a more welcoming place for new players


For retro WoE removal of the use of mini-boss cards (as well MVPs as we have currently) and/or BG gear may make some less geared or new players feel they like they can compete.


------ TL:DR --------
Population to small for SE (IMO); FE has always been boring; Maybe we should try something a little different

[sheam]

Now.. I've said this in the past: "The only way to stimulate competition where there is too much participation, is to make winning more rewarding."

This is not a solution, however, just a equation solved through reverse reconstructing game design post server design and then offering the best suggestion from my experience. Also, it's very unilateral as it implies items (aka, the spoon i throw on the ground) define worth.

TLDR at the bottom. thanks.


Here's my
At its core, RO is about acquiring valuable items (exp is finate.)
[Hate to burst your bubble, but its really 'Thy Shall Covet:' The Game]

WoE, at its core, is RO's End Game.

End Game exists because player level / exp is finate.

End Game is about forcing teamplay by using items outside of end-game to earn exclusive end-game items.

End-Game items must be graded the Highest in order to be exclusive.

All Items are defined by their worth. Supply/Demand.

The value of end-game items on a server will potentially decay over time.

The server is over a decade old, and has no wipe. which adds to the potential decayed value exponentially.

This system is made even further complex with its existence of PvP.

PvP is player competition.

Player competition is defined by a player dominating another player for resource control.

Resource control is maintained through a dominance resulting in no contest.

No contest creates participation.

Participation is the absence of competition. <-- What needs to be fixed.

Post-Analysis:
This server's design philosophy for longevity and preservation has created a conflict with RO's design philosophy to acquire valuable items.


So I ask myself ..
How has this been addressed thus far?
And it has quite extensively,
with the creation of Custom-Made items.

My next step would be to compare WoE's system with a heRO custom-created system that most closly resembles it: Trial of the Hunter.

--------

TLDR: Create a custom item reward that is desirable by the players who will emerge dominant in a competition.

[Plant]

I really don't wanna get nuked for going off-topic but I'll do this anyways because past two replies are already off-topic anyways, but before I do that; Slight update to my vote if this is allowed.

I'm going to take back my vote on option 1 and go for option 3 because I'm not too fond of losing a WoE by sacrificing trans WoE, and due to the lack of flexibility of the changes suggested by this thread. I've expressed my issues and opinions with keeping Retro instead of a second trans WoE in the previous posts. This time, my vote prioritizes more on fun for players who can compete in WoE rather than the agreeable logic behind having reduced number of castles.

Maybe I'll be vote back on number 1 if Retro is the sacrifice, or if Retro gets changed into a more fun mode.

==================================

Lack of competition in WoE is, in my opinion, due to a mix of things than just undesirable reward. But for now, yep, I'll say it and agree with what Sheam said: undesirable reward.

At the end of the day, the PVP people who dominate a castle are going to get rewards in chests and guild dungeon, and where/how are they able to utilize these rewards? Going to non-PVP environments.

The rewards from WoE does not cater to the people who actually WoEs at all. Sure, you get god items which is like the ultimate thing in all of heRO, but you're going to be sad once you realize it's not usable in PVP/GVG environments.

But there's balance issues to that as well. WoE is a one-hit fest experience for anyone who isn't ultra-geared. It gets worse with God Items enabled there. So what can you do? Rebalancing your available classes/stats/gears after years of being untouched to accommodate god items is something actual game developers may do.

Moving god items acquisition away from PVP is another quick and easy answer. But maybe someone else who spends more than half a second thinking (unlike me) can propose a better plan.

Edit: Someone raised a point in Discord where god items are perfectly acceptable in high-population servers ranging above thousands, just because a guild can never get too many god items, and they'll still be outnumbered that god items hardly matters. >1k WoE is honestly a different breed of WoE compared to a <30 man WoE. One person with god item can really have an impact against guilds in heRO due to low attendances.

The value of end-game items on a server will potentially decay over time.

This is something I hope developers on heRO don't rely on. With how much RNG and way too much tedium needed to hunt these 'end-game' gears, it will take years and maybe more population drops before newer players are able to enjoy a dying PVP scene.

And that's another huge problem with PVP here. PVP is an end-game 'privilege' here and growth for PVP usually only starts very, very late in gameplay where you'll most likely have multiple characters by then. A lot of cards like being able to survive single Asura/AD or being able to block Freeze or being able to resist 30% more Demi-human damage are all locked behind 0.03%, or a high price for any newer players out there.

Now think of every other possible cards that's needed and that's more 0.03% RNGs to farm. WoE in a server with low drop rates as its only way to grow as a PVP player is going to have a huge entry barrier. Or you can farm BG gears either by hoping people agree to dice or you can be a team burden repeatedly before being able to contribute with the BG gear you want. Either way, both are never pleasant experiences for new players.

From what I've seen from the past few years of WoE participation, we're losing more players quicker than gaining new players and I say it is the result of all these towering entry barriers combined into a single mess of a GVG event that mostly rewards PVM players.

Sure we get small outbursts of participants every now and then, but it's still the same number of guilds and rarely ever any new guilds that are able to make an impact when joining the fray. I can't really see any new guild being able to penetrate into the WoE scene here without years of intense, monotonous farming. Infinity Circuit managed to survive months of doing this before finally quitting. They had great numbers but most of them still get ignored or one-shot by bigger guilds cause their presence and gears posed very little threat.

There was a suggestion, with examples, of a better integration of PVM growth into PVP growth in the past, but there wasn't really much that went into that discussion. I feel that heRO really needs this if we are not going to simply lower that entry barrier (which I don't ever see happening due to how stiff this server is to nostalgic values), but it will also take more effort than simple adjusting numbers.

End Game is about forcing teamplay by using items outside of end-game to earn exclusive end-game items.

Not entirely true, because most of our good WoE cards are not just stuck behind 0.03%, but also on low-level monsters or weak but rare ones, both of which are completely solo-able. If you meant only gears, then it's still not entirely true because there's also V4P gears, hatter gears and gears from solo farming.

But this also actually enhances the point expressed by your post-analysis. There's just too much shit to farm for over long periods of time to be not be completely worthless in PVP, which is a huge conflict in getting more people to participate in WoE.

[GM-Ayu]

I'm going to take back my vote on option 1 and go for option 3

In that case, I will edit your vote and move you from option 1 to 3. Your name will still show up in option 1 but I've changed the total number of votes in terms of numbers.


Feel free to make off-topic discussions about pvp, which I will read, but for now will not consider implementing for reasons stated above.