Crime & Punishment

[Kiki]

KIKI you know my name .. pm me i dont know yours. lil reira or something like that .. ill listen but unless you can back it up iono how much i can believe.

u said u were bein held back Oo; i said u can rant at me thru forum pms if u feel the need to. and i dont care if u believe w/e i or ne one else says or not, thats not the point. u said "we shouldnt post venom at cucu like we do" and all im sayin is we all have our reasons so unless u kno what went down and such i dont think u can say that to us. im not here to convince u about ne thing.

[ShadesOfBlue]

all i do know is you guys keep flameing cuc and i know for a FACT he wasnt a major cause for all the extiction, he also want completely innocent .. he told me before i got these screenies he egged on a bit and i have to agree he did heh.

[Kiki]

i dont recall ne flaming :o i prefer to say i was merely callin him out on it :3 and btw u must be so proud

[Culex]

u said u were bein held back Oo; i said u can rant at me thru forum pms if u feel the need to. and i dont care if u believe w/e i or ne one else says or not, thats not the point. u said "we shouldnt post venom at cucu like we do" and all im sayin is we all have our reasons so unless u kno what went down and such i dont think u can say that to us. im not here to convince u about ne thing.

Ironic since you've only been here for a few month and me about two years. I think I know more about what happened with Jason overall with the server than you do.

What I have told him, whatever it was, was pretty much justified I'm sure. I also really doubt that it has anything to do with what happened with him in the end for many many reasons

[Kiki]

u said u were bein held back Oo; i said u can rant at me thru forum pms if u feel the need to. and i dont care if u believe w/e i or ne one else says or not, thats not the point. u said "we shouldnt post venom at cucu like we do" and all im sayin is we all have our reasons so unless u kno what went down and such i dont think u can say that to us. im not here to convince u about ne thing.

Ironic since you've only been here for a few month and me about two years. I think I know more about what happened with Jason overall with the server than you do.

What I have told him, whatever it was, was pretty much justificated I'm sure. I also really doubt that it has anything to do with what happened with him in the end for many many reasons

ive been here for about a year and btw i dont care what happened btwn u and jason in the beginning :o i was talkin about recently
and the word is justified D: stop imitating our president >:F

[Adrillf]

I'd first like to start out with saying, that I strongly believe in keeping this argument mud-slinging free, and would like to hope that others would respect that and be willing to not result to mud slinging and name calling.

Amen. I would know best that No guild chat(winkwink) or "guild forum"(/gg) on this server forum page is innocent. And all I've personally seen was GM's saying to watch language after such posts and sometimes edit the posts themselves never to actually give a punishment for such actions, but hey of course LoA is different.

I'm sort of new to all of this, but I decided to at least take a good search through the forums of Behemoth (the guild which I am part of) just to see if this point would hold water. I had a bit of insomnia tonight, so I was able to look through all four pages of the Behemoth area of the forum, as well as looking through every thread for any sort of joking/insulting, and yet no insults were found. The most devious thing that I could find was trying to find out a way to get past the precast of LoA during WoE, past that planning and trying to figgure out what strategy would work on it, there were no slanderous comments made, unless you want to include things like this. . .

I saw these two and the though of you.

as being offensive towards others. If you want to include that, then we're in buisness and your statment about how other people are offensive in their sections of the forum is supported. But considering that even in guild chat when this subject gets brought up by Hibiki Amara and others simply say to the effect, "We're not going to worry about this or discuss this here" your argument really starts to fall apart.


As for the quote of

Its pretty obvious to tell if one is joking or not if they were actually reading the guild chat while the joke was being made.

I will like to say that if you say anything racist even if it is joking bad things can happen. Race is a sensitive subject in any culture, in any culturally setting, even among my closest friends race is something tht is treated with caution. If you were joking about race, you must realize that it takes little or no work on the race that you're joking about to get offended. Even among good friends, people can be offended and cut deep even by off hand joking comments.

My final comment about all of this is this; be nice to the GMs. They're being as nice as they can be, and they're trying to do their jobs, but you have to remember that they have real life jobs as well. They are busy people that have other things to worry about besides just running heRO. They have to pay the bills just like the rest of us and even do things like buy grocries, and have relationships outside of the game of heRO. They're trying their best, they really are, and it's amazing that they're able to put together as much as they do (ToH, server events, ect) Give them a break. IF they were getting payed full time for this, if they were actually doing this as their full time job and we were all paying money to them just to play this game, then we would have an excuse for being upset at them. They are trying their hardest, and if that level is not satisfactory for you, go to a pay to play server and have some fun. I might be new to heRO, but I do know how much work it takes to run an entire community, expecially an MMORPG.

I along with the others that have said this in this thread as well as those who have not posted it the forums would like to say, thank you. To those people that have made heRO the way that it is, it is truely one of a kind.

Edited for a dumb spelling/grammar error

[Culex]

hmm yeah think you should concern your own writting abilities before correcting mine. Thanks however, will fix this o_o

[SwiftStrike]

Yes, Adrillf, because I was obviously talking about Behemoth,jkjk but I do see the confusion because of the way it was worded. I honestly didn't mean to throw that in there to mean "No" as in a whole server wise but hinting to a more specific guild. but it is good to hear that there isn't much hatred running on that board though, umm nice pics?lol.

[Kiki]

minez are on purpoze :O~ and np glad to help a fellow citizen of Rune Midgard ^_^v

nice comment adrillf but i guess its just hard sometimes when u feel like ur constantly under fire/watch from "the government" o.o *ninjas away*

[GM-Ayu]

I was getting a social life (or an attempt at it, at least) instead of GMing, so I only get to reply now =o

Instead of addressing to different people's post who jumps over all the different topics (along with a bit of humor to lighten the mood, which is always fine XD), I'll reply by to the RMS issue, guild chat spying issue, and the 'moral of heRO' issue. I can talk for those 3, and really the first one is an easy one.

A few topics I will ignore, since it was divided to other GMs and not mine. I don't have complete understanding of those situation, and therefore I'll only make things worse if I reply to them (mostly the specific cases, like "Buddha's char deletion, "Fainn" and "Silvanel" case)

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ShadesofBlue, Cucu and Kiki

Both of you offered to talk about it on PM or ingame private chat instead. So, go do what both of you said. You two are getting this off topic from Machiavelli's original post and instead shifting the general case to a specific one about Cucu. Go in-game or PM in forum to talk about it.

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Deletion of RMS Reviews

Is it a conspiracy for heRO to cover up reviews? *Even if we are* which we are not, we can't anyway. Pandora cannot just delete specific reviews. We have to talk to RMS managers and the people there to do it, and when that happens, we are asked quite a bit of significant information as well. RMS contacted Pandora on Friday about the sudden unnatural boost in reviews, both below 40 reviews and the 100s. Pandora have worked it out with the people of RMS there, and deleted the reviews deemed as unreasonable or a foolish act.

If you have questions there, heRO forum is not to ask for this one. You should contact RMS about their review policies instead. We aren't almighty in this one. There is one above us, and that's the RMS staff. Relatively, we are just members there. Complaints about why RMS reviews are deleted do not belong here. It belongs over there in RMS.

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Guild Chat Monitoring

Aaronock mentioned that any form of reading guild chat is a slippery slope. However, I disagree. There are many positive outcomes of it as well. There are disagreements and opinions that people vent on and rant to their guildmates, but just not to GMs. From what I read from LoA guild chats for this event, GMs actually gained a lot of great opinions that will never be expressed in heRO forum or to a GM. We now know that there's a group of players who hold customizations as a far less priority, and that instead the Control Panel should be the first to fix, followed by the Nameless Island update.

Control Panel is redeemed as a basic to all server, so how come heRO does not have it? Faster SvN update brings more new content than a custom quest can ever do (However let it be noted that heRO will NOT consider the ep12 update yet, due to the existence of a fatal infinite zeny loop problem in LhZ. This bug proves that ep12 svn is really not all that ready...) However, these things are never told to GMs, and we only obtained these feelings from guild chats. When we asked people to vote for thanatos tower vs novice wing quest, nobody mentioned how both of them are bad choices and GMs should focus on fixing CP.

Guild chat reading is not a landslide to the negative direction. Good things can come out of it.

As for LoA being the only ones checked, ShadesofBlue already proved otherwise. On top of that, remember how I mentioned that I know someone is reporting on an ex-LoA member to try to "do them in" for once and for all and that this reporting player is really just a ruleshark? How else do I know that unless I read those guild chats as well?

Working off of Machiavelli's example, real life uses search warrants. Who hands out the search warrants to the police? The judges and even "higher" authority. These higher authority members keep the police in check so it is not abused. Carry this parallel to heRO, and we realize that the police and the judges/higher authority are the same people... Police can use a search warrant to say "This action is approved." What can heRO GMs say? We are basically judging ourselves, so any 'warrants' from us are useless words anyway in this regard. It is like what Machiavelli say, this is a matter of trust.

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Moral of heRO

Lots of posts here are related to the players' concern/disagreement with how the GMs handle what is considered 'right' and 'wrong' or what is acceptable to a heRO standard to behavior. This involves the name deletion issue. Really, what sums this up is defining morals.

A popular view point not unique to heRO usually involves something along the line of: "this is the internet, if you can't handle the behavior here then log off." It works either way really... instead of thinking why you have to control and change your own ways to accommodate some others, the reverse is equally valid. Why must other players sacrifice from their privilege to enjoy an online game just because of the behaviors of others?

heRO started off with a very high bar when it comes to 'morals' like this, such as the naming and language on @main and so on in comparison to other servers. To *me* personally, lowering the bar is a slippery slope. heRO takes pride in their welcoming community and how everyone is well behaved, respectful, and takes care of newcomers very well. How did we foster and encourage this type of behavior in players? We worked on the very basics and the small things, such as just names and languages. If people don't slip up here, then they most likely won't dare to try the next step to do things such as ridiculing new players just because they got no powerful gears/levels, and so on. Anytime you lower this bar, then people got precedent cases to say "if that type of thing is allowed and the rules changed to reflect this, what about THIS?" It's possible, but extremely tough to raise the moral bars again when it comes to ruling...

In RMS, there is a thread there where server owners and some players gathered to talk about how to really keep a server seeker to stay and call a server home. One of the many key points is simply language and the general mood of the players' conversations with one another. It may seem to have no impact to players who already call heRO their server of choice. A bit of sarcasm here, a bit of rougher language here for laughs... all of it is harmless. But it definitely builds up for someone who have no friends with anyone, unsure of their new surrounding, and unfamiliar with everything in the server.

For example, the first player they met happen to be Krimlin. Krimlin is always dead set on talking about server resets. heRO players know that and sometimes joke around with him. Even the GMs know, and sometimes I keep saying "maybe we should just reset Krimlin's account if he wants it so much" and we all laugh about it. Krimlin knows that GMs won't really go reset his account just because. Players know that Krimlin's talk of reset won't go anywhere far. However, how does a new player know this? Let's assume that Krimlin went to his usual jolly self and say there shall be a server reset! New players have no idea if he is joking or not, since he does not know Krimlin personally yet. He sees Krimlin as someone who has a trans, which is usually an indication that the player stayed in the server for pretty long... add together how the new player does not know anything with the new environment known as heRO, that new player will have a hard time distinguishing fun/jokes, or a serious comments.

Therefore, from the standpoint of GMs, in order to foster a community of great players, we have decided on the "moral based rules" as where it is today. When it comes to languages, anything viewed by the wide server public, such as party names, guild names, player names, public heRO forum posts, shop/chatroom names, and languages on main, are to follow the set regulations in heRO rules. Guild chat, private chat, whispers, party chat, public chat but not on @main, do not follow the same strictness when it comes to languages.

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Too Many Rules on heRO

There's a reason why GMs had to make so many rules, as much as how it's inconvenient to players and the "look" of the post seems to restrict a player's freedom and there's so many things to mind of.

GMs can't act on "common sense." If it's not written, then it's not wrong. The reason why rules are usually acted/lengthened, but not the other way around, is because GMs can only act if it is mentioned in the rules. We are binded by these words. Common sense vary from different people, but if things are explicitly written out, then people can argue on and on about what's part of common sense or not.

A specific case: fishing/pet looting
-this report did happen, but I'll omit the names

Player A unloaded their pet at fishing, and is trying to organize his items/fishes/baits between his own character weight and his pet. Player B sees it, and picks up the fishes/baits. Player A demands the item to come back, since it's obvious that those are his items, from his pet. Player B says that they are items on the floor, which are free to take.

Is this stealing items from other players? Previously, our item rule only said that you can't kill steal. However, this doesn't involve killing monsters. Items on the floor are free to take by game mechanics anyway, right?

Player A report Player B, but GM team though sympathize with Player A, cannot punish Player B and get the items back. Player B didn't "break the rule" taking items on the floor. GM team is helpless.

That's why I talked with the GM team, and Pandora gave me the ok to change the KS rules to include items from pet as well. Now, with the new rule, GM team is in power to go and interfere with future situations.

To say that some of those rules are overly restricting of players' rights, freedom and activity, is not very true. It is to the benefits of players so that GM team can serve you better and protect you from misfortunes. Rule thread is a pain to read. It's long. It's boring. It's technical. Its word choices are picky. It's intimidating to even look at. However, this monster is also what makes your experience heRO safe.

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The Only 2 Things that Matter

GMs have been very reactive in this recent matter. So allow me to be a bit rash, and say be on the proactive instead. Let me speak as myself of what I want for once. I didn't talk about this with the GM team prior to posting like what I usually do, but I feel very strongly about this idea and how this is really the only thing that matters regarding how your future playing experience in heRO will go.

I personally find that this is true for all servers, to be honest.

Ask yourself 2 questions. Say Yes or No to them.

1. Are my beliefs similar to that of the head GM within an acceptable level?
2. Can I trust the head GM?

And nothing else in a server really matter... only these two questions.

Community does not matter

If the community is harsh, the players are mean, the trans are elitists, the guilds are filled with hate with each other, it does NOT matter as long as the Head GM is with you. If you trust the head GM, and that you think the head GM's beliefs are similar to you, then it is a matter of time before the head GM takes action, and kicks the rulebreakers out of the server. The intolerable players will be punished, and those who cause trouble will be jailed. The head GM will get the job done.

The GM team does not matter

Neither does the regular GM team members matter. If GMs cheat, picks on players, plays favoritism, power abuse or whatever, it does not matter as long as you trust in your head GM and is in alignment with her beliefs. The head GM will fire the corrupted GMs, confiscate illegal items, restore lost data, free the innocents and ban those who the corrupted GM protects. The head GM will get the job done.


If your beliefs are similar to the head GMs, then game balance is also a matter of time of just when will the head GM have time to get to it. Any moment the head GM is thinking of ways to balance the game more, or fix any mistakes. The head GM will set the level of acceptance of what is appropriate and what is inappropriate at a level that will compromise many aspects and acceptable by many.

Let's say that I'm a botter and I think it's fine. Botting is fine as nobody likes the grinding, and I'm here to enjoy not to torture myself for 50+ hours to train up. I see botting as perfectly acceptable, since this is only getting items. I still need true skill when I WoE, which is all the game is. I decide to join heRO server.

I set up my bot as usual, which is nothing wrong as I do that wherever I go. However, a GM sees me, and immediately jails me. During the bot test, the GMs are asking me ridiculous questions and requests that are totally unrelated to RO and disrupting my bot. GMs announces how I am caught for botting, which there is nothing wrong to begin with. Why are they making a fuss about it? They will know my true skill when they fight me in the PvP rooms. However, nobody from the community understands. They ridicule me on @main, and just cheers with these GMs who do not listen or understand me.

I report this to Pandora, but Pandora shrugs me off then permanent bans me. Head GM totally picked on me, never listened to me, and is biased against me. This server sucks.

There are servers that allow botters, as much as how all of heRO players can agree that botters definitely deserve an instant permanent ban once they are discovered as bots. This is what a totally different belief from the head GM can do. Both sides think they are right, but head GM is the one with power. You can try to negotiate as much as you want, but Pandora and heRO server both calls it a "no question asked, ban away" for bots.

Beliefs can't be identical, but you can judge for yourself if you can compromise with the head GM's stand, or accept/tolerate some slight variation.


A head GM maybe weak and lack the guts to carry out his/her own rules against rulebreakers, but if you TRUST in the head GM, it will be done one day.

A head GM maybe incompetent and can't do updates/enough customization, but if you TRUST in the head GM, you know that he/she is doing everything he/she can. The head GM is already looking for someone who can, or even learning it to do it personally.

A head GM may have made the wrong call, but if you TRUST in the head GM, you know that the head GM will apologize in making the mistake, and will fix up the problem.

A head GM may have a different standpoint than you and make overly tough/lax rules/horrible balance changes, but if you TRUST in the head GM, then through negotiations, proves and compromises, you know that there will be change and that the head GM listens.

If you trust in the head GM, everything will go along your way.

What if I said "no" to the 2 questions?
Pack up your things. Get those MSN/email/facebook from your friends so you can keep in contact. It's time to leave.

This thread can go on forever and ever. GMs can "listen" and make "changes." GMs can "promise" to satisfy the players or so this type of thing never happens again in the future. However, can you really prove these things will happen in the future? How do I know? That's in the future. If you don't at least trust in the head GM, then to your mind, the head GM will not listen. The head GM will not change. The head GM will break promises. The head GM is intolerable, biased, and corrupted. Since the head GM, according to what you feel and how you do not trust the head GM at all, is totally unhelpful, anything else that can go wrong will go wrong. There is no longer a body of absolute authority that you can turn to that can solve problems. Even if a lower GM is nice and whatever, it doesn't matter because it's the head GM who makes all final decision.

If your beliefs are totally on the opposite side of that of GM-Pandora, and if you don't place your trust in GM-Pandora, I think that this is a signal how heRO server is not for you.

Staying here under these type of circumstances and feelings is really wasting your time. You play RO during your spare time to have fun and be happy, not to be stressed and deal with these horrible people every time you log on. RO should be an enjoyment, not something you have to drag through in a place where the one with absolute power is not someone you can even trust. Your playing experience will be a nightmare.

Likewise it's a problem for the GMs too. GMs try to reach out to these players to explain a situation, but because their beliefs are just too dramatically different, there's little to no room of common grounds or understanding. GMs say that they will change it for the better, but these people do not believe in it due to a lack of trust. GMs promises and asks to wait, but again the people do not trust in these promises and are dissatisfied. It will just frustrate the GM team to no end, especially the head GM.


How do your beliefs go in comparison to GM-Pandora's belief?

Do you trust your head GM of heRO server, GM-Pandora?


I've said all that I can. I will not post in this thread anymore...