Dragon Manteau and Nidhoggur MVP?

[Irxallis]

You might consider SoV to be available, yet I never see a SoV in Prontera shop. It might be ~30 mln, but can you really buy one not having connections? Especially when everybody and their dog tries to combo it with ToH armour?

It is even worse than the Dragon Killer dagger - I heard there are many of those from guild dungeons, yet to get one I had to put up a rare item. No way to buy one in Pront.

I am not talking about zeny. Zeny is indeed easy to get, even playing regularly (I don't have problems with zeny and I never fish or mine - I just play in more difficult dungeons and vend loots in Pront, with Mavka hunting detours from time to time). I am talking about availability or perceived availability.

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Still, this thread is not about zeny or affordability - it is about availability of a Dragon Manteau.

What would get broken if this impossible to get combo would get slightly more possible to get? I mean: which equipment would be made useless (except of P[1]+U[1], which with introduction of a new set would hit the market and let other, newer people buy Kavach Undershirts and carded panties for much lower price, reducing the gap between those of us who play longer and those who came not long ago)? This could be a second - inferior - alternative to ToH wings + SoV.

At this moment Dragon Manteau is worth ~60~70 mln zeny to me (I'd have to borrow LOTS of zeny to get it I guess...). In case it was moved to any killable monster in Nidhoggur2, it would drop to ~30 mln and I would have even more motivation to go there hunt it, not only 'it is fun'. More parties would get assembled there and before the market got somewhat saturated older players would get even richer - but that is ok, as the newer players would have the gear and zeny is technically useless, unless you use a high-upkeep class. In time Dragon Manteau cost would fall down, Nidhoggur Dungeon would get some love it deserves (it is an awesome dungeon) and non-ToHers would have decent stuff as well.

If this is a Nidhoggur MVP drop, I can only buy this item and I cannot plan to get it. Honestly, it is useless. If it is a Duneyrr drop (for example), I can sit and plan "ok, I have class X, Y and Z in party. How do I kill a Duneyrr to get it".

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Besides, what do you disagree with? My analysis or a SoV part? If it is a Skin of Ventus, I concede my point - I don't want to derail this thread so I agree with you after adding the above clarification.

Is my analysis incorrect or did I miss anything important about Dragon Manteau? Why 'it is fine as it is' - in other words, why is Dragon Manteau dropped by Nidhoggur MVP superior to Dragon Manteau dropped by Duneyrr?

[Trapper]

IMHO the Dragon Combo Easily Powers out SoV.
Better Flee Then SoV.
I Love Flee.

[Corporal]

Trapper Wrote:IMHO the Dragon Combo Easily Powers out SoV.
Better Flee Then SoV.
I Love Flee.

Irxallis Wrote:This could be a second - inferior - alternative to ToH wings + SoV

Next time, read the long posts before posting. SoV alone isn't the best, but when combo'd with ToH wings, it gives more flee than dragon combo.

Irxallis Wrote:Besides, what do you disagree with? My analysis or a SoV part? If it is a Skin of Ventus, I concede my point - I don't want to derail this thread so I agree with you after adding the above clarification.

Is my analysis incorrect or did I miss anything important about Dragon Manteau? Why 'it is fine as it is' - in other words, why is Dragon Manteau dropped by Nidhoggur MVP superior to Dragon Manteau dropped by Duneyrr?

If we're going to remove the drop from Nidhoggur, then we might as well just add it back to Draco since that's where it officially should be. However, Nidhoggur already has some decent attendance - I believe people, along with the rest of heRO, are just lazy to assemble the parties to make an actual attempt at the MVP. The custom changes on the MVPs of this server (the way I see it) were made such that the players would find a way to handle it. There are plenty of parties who can handle higher-end MVPs without high end gears. It's simply the lack of motivation to try doing high end parties without the best possible gears. I don't think that that we should be looking to change who drops the gear, but rather looking at killing the current monster which drops it.

[Aaronock]

I don't even care if they move the manteau back to the draco.
I find issues with the fact that Nidhog already drops like...stuff that's already broken (proxy skin mant) and now on top of it drops a great pvm gear that nobody can get really if they are even a decent player on the server.??On top of that, the MvP Reward drops are freaking epic as all get out, one of them dropping from bio 3 mob Seyren or as a guild treasure drop (Dragon Killer), one of them being from a boss itself (Dragon Wing) and one being a drop from a boss and a level 4 wep (Dragon Slayer).??So explain to me why does it need another gear that will only inflate in cost due to it being a part of a combo, and not one that is nearly as broken as Horn Combo from Beelze?

Random teams are not going to go out of their way to kill that MvP, and good luck finding people who find any use in partying Nidhog, I know I looked like a damn beggar one week just asking to join a party for it on main, or even making one.

Edit: My final point is that the Boss already drops a lot of great stuff for every class nearly in the game, some of the drops which aren't even native to the boss also drop. Why do we need to give a combo that some only deem as "average" be so damn difficult to get?

[Irxallis]

Corporal Wrote:If we're going to remove the drop from Nidhoggur, then we might as well just add it back to Draco since that's where it officially should be.

Personally I think that Draco dropping both Manteau and Vest, both at 0.3% is wrong. 'Official' does not mean 'the best'. The Dragon combo might be worse than SoV and ToH wings in pure agi and flee, but it is very versatile thanks to an armour slot and in my opinion it would be way overpowered if it was too accessible. That is why I did not say 'give it to Rata'. I want Dragon Manteau to be difficult to get, but not almost impossible given resources I can imagine to get.

Corporal Wrote:I believe people, along with the rest of heRO, are just lazy to assemble the parties to make an actual attempt at the MVP

Well, you got me here. Personally (again) I don't like MVP hunting because of FFA and actual time to find the thing. Believe me, I would not make this post if I could imagine any way to get Dragon Manteau in ~6 months time either using zeny or hunting it myself.

In any dungeon or party I can offer a not-very-well equipped 99 FS (DEX>INT>VIT) High Priest with always cheerful attitude, stack of BGems for Safety Walls and a decently equipped Agi dagger Stalker (twin thief ring build). Those are not a high end MVP team members, in most cases we would be more of a nuisance than help in high end MVPs (even assuming we are extremely good in playing RO, which would be false). As far as I know, people more powerful and skilled than I am whom I know are not very interested in getting this set, because they are not that interested in Agi builds and losing an armour slot to any combo is always a painful issue. I wouldn't call people lazy - I think the Dragon Manteau as a reward is not interesting enough for those able to kill it, and those who want this set will not be very useful at killing Nidhoggur (doesn't seem to be a MVP one could zerg >.>)

And in my opinion reducing the Nidhoggur MVP power would be just silly - there needs to be something insanely powerful to kill, at least for the bragging rights. But destroying the combo which would really benefit characters using flee seems a bit cruel. It's not that they are too good at the moment.

Still, this combo is very good - too good to be accessible on lv1. But if, say, it was an Undine drop (I don't know a lot about this monster yet, haven't seen it, but the stories I heard make me believe it eats Duneyrr for breakfast) it would still be hard to get (you need to get to Nidhoggur dungeon lv3 and kill an Undine) wouldn't it require enough commitment? That way it would go way above Dimensional Gorge and mini-valk incarnation level (which we can duo with my stalker partner even if it takes lots of time) but still was not impossible to get if you put a lot of effort and planning to get it.

Planning is fun. Being useless isn't.

Corporal Wrote:I don't think that that we should be looking to change who drops the gear, but rather looking at killing the current monster which drops it.

And I think we should change what drops the gear because it is a part of the combo. At the moment I am selling Dragon Vests in Pront between 1 and 1.5 mln zeny and I am afraid people who buy them might not be informed that they will never get a Dragon Manteau. I am not saying 'OMG! I WANT DRACO TO DROP IT NOW!!!', I am really trying to scale the difficulty in such a way that it is hard to get, but not impossible. Right now... we got a dungeon, but we will never have a combo.

And I'd prefer to have it on Duneyrr than on Undine, but both monsters suit me. As long as this is not a MVP I think a semi-random dedicated team with a decent plan can kill it.

[Ultima_Pi]

Nidhoggur is just icing on the cake that people (who think of strats to kill he) already have.

[Trapper]

Aaronock Wrote:I don't even care if they move the manteau back to the draco.
I find issues with the fact that Nidhog already drops like...stuff that's already broken (proxy skin mant) and now on top of it drops a great pvm gear that nobody can get really if they are even a decent player on the server.??On top of that, the MvP Reward drops are freaking epic as all get out, one of them dropping from bio 3 mob Seyren or as a guild treasure drop (Dragon Killer), one of them being from a boss itself (Dragon Wing) and one being a drop from a boss and a level 4 wep (Dragon Slayer).??So explain to me why does it need another gear that will only inflate in cost due to it being a part of a combo, and not one that is nearly as broken as Horn Combo from Beelze?

Random teams are not going to go out of their way to kill that MvP, and good luck finding people who find any use in partying Nidhog, I know I looked like a damn beggar one week just asking to join a party for it on main, or even making one.

Edit: My final point is that the Boss already drops a lot of great stuff for every class nearly in the game, some of the drops which aren't even native to the boss also drop.??Why do we need to give a combo that some only deem as "average" be so damn difficult to get???

U r Wrong Aaro.
Corporal is a Pro Who Constantly Parties(in Dreams).: P

[Corporal]

Irxallis Wrote:Well, you got me here. Personally (again) I don't like MVP hunting because of FFA and actual time to find the thing. Believe me, I would not make this post if I could imagine any way to get Dragon Manteau in ~6 months time either using zeny or hunting it myself.

In any dungeon or party I can offer a not-very-well equipped 99 FS (DEX>INT>VIT) High Priest with always cheerful attitude, stack of BGems for Safety Walls and a decently equipped Agi dagger Stalker (twin thief ring build). Those are not a high end MVP team members, in most cases we would be more of a nuisance than help in high end MVPs (even assuming we are extremely good in playing RO, which would be false).

The MVP is on the last floor, and I'm sure no one has killed it yet. In this case, I don't see too many issues with the time to find it. Also, if another party were to go and attempt the MVP at the same time (which frankly, is extremely unlikely given the amount of organization required for a party of this caliber), then you would just have more help and be able to learn the strats from other groups. As for the classes you've mentioned, there will always be classes that don't fit in major runs. But, for example, one couldn't expect to be invited to a bee runs if they were offering a sniper (at least by the strategy heRO follows).

Irxallis Wrote:As far as I know, people more powerful and skilled than I am whom I know are not very interested in getting this set, because they are not that interested in Agi builds and losing an armour slot to any combo is always a painful issue. I wouldn't call people lazy - I think the Dragon Manteau as a reward is not interesting enough for those able to kill it, and those who want this set will not be very useful at killing Nidhoggur (doesn't seem to be a MVP one could zerg >.>)

They don't need to be enticed by the Dragon Manteau - there's plenty of other drops that should make the run worth the time. To use Bee as an example again, you could go on a Bee run and be looking for the staff of destruction and nothing else.

Irxallis Wrote:And in my opinion reducing the Nidhoggur MVP power would be just silly - there needs to be something insanely powerful to kill, at least for the bragging rights. But destroying the combo which would really benefit characters using flee seems a bit cruel. It's not that they are too good at the moment.

The combo isn't destroyed. It's still available, but it requires players with different goals to work as a team to actually get it. I actually think that drops that are essential to combos and such would further motivate players to, at the least, make attempts on the MVP.

Trapper Wrote:U r Wrong Aaro.
Corporal is a Pro Who Constantly Parties(in Dreams).: P

Either add something to the conversation or just don't post. You're wasting the time of everyone who's actually trying to list out the pros and cons of changing the drop to another monster.

[Namine]

Instead of going with giant (and pointless) wall of text, I like this explanation better:

Even to this date, doddler's wiki still does not recognize dragon manteau to drop from draco, and only the vest does, and doddler is the place where the first reliable source of information comes out. Monsters were made in July 2009, and by standards of July 09, it would be a highly updated, accurate depiction of what Draco should drop.

Then just toss everything on a stupidly hard mvp because it's easier to increase drop rate one way or another later, than to have it be flooded in market beyond control.


Not that complicated, really

[Trapper]

@Namine
Ok i Get it

@Corporal
Wasting time of Every1?
I Don't Like To hear from a MVP Kser.
Who Comes to DB Room to see if any1 is using BB.
And kses them and Tele with fly wing like hell.
So The Player cannot Get ur Screenie.
And When the Players Sees u.
What was u said 2 me last time.
Oh ya I Was Helping to bring down the hp of MVP.
So Shut it.