Make WoE more of a battle.

[Adrillf]

mahawirasd Wrote:to some extent, what adrillf is getting at makes some sense

Edit:

Part 2 of this:

So I made it in time for WoE today, and did a quick roll call via the CP to see who showed up and to get a general taste of what we've got going for us right now.

Basic numbers in alphabetical order-
4srs- 10 people
Behe- 8 people (with one person afk)
DoE- 25 people
KoJ- 20 people

Classes of those people, in order of guild appearance-
4srs-
WS
Clown
Champ
HP
HW
HP
Champ
HW
Stalker
Clown

Behe-
Prof
WS
HP
Prof
Alch (AFK)
Gypsy
Stalker
Sinx
Sinx

DoE-
SL
HW
Sinx
HW
Prof
HP
Champ
Clown
HP
Sinx
Gypsy
HW
Champ
Paladin
Creator
Gypsy
Paladin
WS
HW
Clown
Champ
Sniper
Sniper
HW

KoJ-
Sin
Sin
Monk
Hunter
Stalker
Creator
Clown
Knight
WS
Sinx
Sin
HW
HP
Monk
Priest
Stalker
Creator
HP
Sniper

Do the basic math and look over the list. And I have a few things that I would like to bring up because of it.

1- All of the people that made or joined DoE as an Anti-Behemoth/ Anti-large guild- LOLZ. You are now exactly what you hated in Behe. The irony is not lost on me.

2- Assuming that we open up every single castle, average out the players you get roughly 3 people per guild, and you still walk away with 20 guilds.

3- Next time someone QQ's about WoE not being active, you get laughed at, because most likely you're standing in DoE doing nothing. Today's WoE I saw all of KoJ, all of 4srs, and about 6 people of DoE doing something more than standing in the emp room. To those 6 of you running around, it was nice seeing you, thanks for a good WoE- to those other 20-ish people that I never saw. We missed you today in WoE, it'd be nice to see you out among the rest of us.

[Kittie]

Technicly you can scratch one person of the Behe list since she was WoEing more with KoJ then with us XD

[Landon]

What's stopping DoE from still camping one castle if they're all opened?

[Adrillf]

Selfishness will stop people from camping in a large guild.

Why sit and camp with you, and get not much directly from it, when a person could break out on their own and get a castle, and the rewards, all to themselves? Self-interest says why stay in a guild and do nothing and have to deal with guild storage and politics, when I can just create my own guild and fight for a castle all on our own and share the spoils between 3-6 people instead of 30???

And yes, 80% of you were standing there doing nothing much at the entrance for 40 minutes of WoE. You said it yourself. That's 40 minutes of 80% of your forces doing not that much and being practically inactive in WoE. Then the last 20 minutes of WoE that 80% moved to the back of the castle into the emp room and did nothing there. Camping and precasting the enterance is just as inactive and lame as camping and precasting the emp room. Thank you for agreeing with me.

To sell this point even more, I did a bit of math on chests and eco in castles and some fun facts.
The equation for normal WoE chests is
(eco/5)+4= chests

So that means that even at 0 eco, broken down, not defended, a guild can get 4 chests a day.

A huge castle at 100 eco, taken months to grow and defend and millions of zenny to invest in, gives you 24 chests a day.

The man-power behind this creates some fun math. A 3 man team can keep a 0 eco castle and they can keep it that way every week without any worries and have a fun, active WoE. On the other hand, a guild of 20+ active people, working for 3-4 months, straight, without any interuptions can get a 100 eco castle. We'll assume for the math on the man hours that it's only 20 people in the big guild.

That means for the small guild you're going to need 6 man hours a week to keep your 28 chests a week. 6/28 reduces down to 3/14, which means 3 man hours for 14 chests.

For a large guild, we'll do some wonky math, and you're allowed to do the real math and equate the growth rate of the eco and all of that, but I don't have the time to do that math. We'll say that 20 people online for 2 hours a week, that's a total of 40 man hours for 168 chests 40/168 reduces down to 5/21. 5 man hours for 21 chests.

We'll compare the fractions, which one is a better ratio? 3/14 (.214) or 5/21 (.238)?

So by some super simplified math that does not take into account all of the variables, the man hours to chest ratio is better for small guilds with low eco, than a 20 person active guild with high eco.

A note for the wise is that this math was running off of the thought that there were only 20 people in the active 100 eco guild. As soon as you add in other people that ratio of man hours to chests starts sky rocketing. For example, moving that ratio up 5 people changes the ratio to 50/168, and for a direct math relationship when you break it down to the decimal, that brings it to .298 for your ratio, as compared to the .214 of the 3 man, 0 eco, guild.

Math says if you want more chests that you can control for the least amount of work, have a small guild.

The formula for chests favors low eco castles. There are more rewards for a low eco castle than a high eco castle when comparing the investment cost and man hours to defend. Think about it, a high eco castle has to put in more zenny and man hours to get a worse ratio of man hours/chests than a 0 eco castle, for the exact same chests. A high eco castle has to invest millions for their chests, a low eco castle has to invest thousands for the same ones.

On another note- who on this server has actually seen the chest room in their castle for the past 6 months? Who has ever looted chests for their guild? Money has it that the list is small enough to count on your hands. 60+ active WoE participants, and we're trusting 4, maybe 6, people with all of our WoE rewards. They're supposed to be our rewards, we worked for them, and yet we have to ask for them and can get told no for things that we've worked for.

People being selfish and wanting those rewards directly into their accounts are going to cause people to split.

[Landon]

You're retarded. The only reason people woe for chests is for god item pieces and thats almost impossible to achieve with a 0 eco castle.

[mahawirasd]

+1 Adrillf

i love how you've explained the rationale and game theory at play.

I've seen exactly what you predict in the official server i played before coming to HeRO - people breaking off in all directions for personal gain. What it means tho, is that all the noobs will steal whichever castle they can get their grubby hands on while the bigger guilds with god items in their sights will focus on a select few castles (of course this i assuming de-randomized chests). So what would happen is the "Real" action will be much more intense than it is now because the "big" guilds would probably be whittled down to 6-20 people (or at least 1 "good" 12-man party) so those "select" castles would experience intense fighting between the 2 or 3 "big" guilds while all the other noobs will go to the other castles as a solo sinX and experience their own intense battles between themselves


W

PS: love the homer pic too

[Landon]

It's people like this that make the server we have now.

[mahawirasd]

for you, maybe. For others?

wools, obs, and various other items are still useful for ppl who's just starting out. And opening up all the castles would allow new guilds a chance to taste a bit of the woe scene without having to run into a brick wall every single time.

WHEN these new players feel that they've gotten enough gears and want to start going for god items, THEN they will join the big guilds and fight in those "select castles".

of course, this is only if you actually WANT to entice new people into the woe scene. IF what you want is to achieve efficiency in farming god items, then by all means proceed to wall out everyone else, but don't complain about lackluster fights and lack of new blood...
i even made a huge wall of post about efficient god item farming vs woe competitiveness once, just can't seem to find it even after searching through most of my posts...


W

[Adrillf]

Okay, we'll try to go through the posts and respond to what has been said.

Quote:You're retarded.

Thank you for that assessment, your professional opinion and training in scaling others intelligence and mental aptitude will go down in my personal file for ever. I might use you as a reference next time I apply for village idiot, competition sure is rough these days and it's so nice to have a good letter of recommendation.

Quote:The only reason people woe for chests is for god item pieces . . .

No. The only reason YOU woe for chests is for god item pieces. What about people that don't have wool scarfs? What about the people who want a chance at BB's and DB's without a crooked hat? What about those people who can't kill mini-valk but still want a shield? The world of WoE does not involve just you and other veteran players.

For those who want to keep their high eco castles and try to gain 24 chests a day with the only purpose being god item ingredients, with this set up, they can do that. However, for those people who are new and want a place to start and the ability to participate in a WoE and get something out of it besides a few weak sauce WoE points, chests are for them. Opening up all castles makes all parties happy. It allows those who are god item hunting to hunt for god items, but it also allows the new people a viable playground that they can learn and grow in, which is what our server currently is missing.

Quote:. . . thats almost impossible to achieve with a 0 eco castle.

Know what else is almost impossible? God items in general. If it wasn't for heritage items being passed from one person to the next, the only guilds on this server that would have a single god item is Seraph (thanks to Bloody) and Behe. All other god items are heritage items gained from other people doing the work, and the ingredients getting passed from one generation of players to the next. 100 eco castle or 0 eco castle, both are hard pressed for god item creation. Either way, with all castles open, you can still farm your god items, and the rest of us can do what we want.

Quote: It's people like this that make the server we have now.

I'm going to be optimistic and assume that you like the way the server is now, and say thank you. Yes, thanks to people like us that want good things for the server, the server is a good place. It's nice to see that you can notice our input doing something.

However; if you're saying that the server is bad and you don't like people like us and the way we talk and rationalize human behavior- feel free to leave. No one is forcing you to stay here (I hope), but if you are forced to be here, send me a PM with the address you're being held at, and I'll call the police right away to free you from your prison of grinding and farming cards and gears on a server that you don't like under the oppressive hands of your captor.

Quote: mahawirasd blah blah blah blah +1 blah blah blah blah W

^I concur on everything you wrote. +1, thumbs up, & whatever else I need to do to agree with what you wrote.

[Ellie]

mahawirasd Wrote:for you, maybe. For others?

wools, obs, and various other items are still useful for ppl who's just starting out. And opening up all the castles would allow new guilds a chance to taste a bit of the woe scene without having to run into a brick wall every single time.

I'm wondering how these newbies that are so ungeared that a Wool scarf or OB would be a "heaven send" are going to be able to take a castle from a small group of geared players.


This is what I foresee happening:
-DoE just moving to whatever castles that the others are in for the majority of the fight, just like they did a few months ago when they got bored.

OR

-Most of the castles staying empty like they are now.

OR

-Guilds NOT disbanding and creating lots of new guilds, but rather the guilds staying together and simply creating small, disruptive parties to go roam out through the other castles, until they control an amount they can keep under control.
Then they'll eco those they can stably keep, and sit on them for God Item pieces. Remember, we're splitting this between 4 guilds worth. Most of them should be able to stably keep a few castles.


The possibility of maybe getting a few items and god item ingredients won't make people split away from the mob.
God items would take too long doing this singularly in a low eco castle, and the majority of other drops are already easily available to most WoEers.

Now, what gives them access to places/items they wouldn't have access to in a small, isolated guild?
A large amount of guildmates.
This provides a large guild storage to poke into, and people to borrow items from, or get characters leeched by.

Which brings up another quesion:
IF all castles were to be opened, and IF all the guilds broke up into tiny little 3 man guilds, would this have an effect on the hunting of the larger MvPs?

Chalk that up as another reason to stay in a large mob guild.