Make WoE more of a battle.

[Deviluke]

After reading everything in this thread, I have to say this is all kind of silly.

Really I am not even sure where to start but let's see....

1. I don't think that increasing rewards from WoE, or trying to change the guild dungeon accessibility will change much, since as it stands people can *usually* just put a farming char into the guild which holds a castle. Not really sure on that 100% since *to my knowledge* there haven't been recent alliances, but I think that's how it was. I also don't think that having huge alliances would really benefit much, since it would just be the same people moving into one group instead of multiple. Even with the idea of all allied guilds being able to come into 1 ecall (I think someone mentioned this earlier in the thread about allied guilds not getting summoned on ecall is a downfall) that would still amount to something near a two guild, or double ecall. Which used to be a common thing in castle pre-emps but is scarce now.

2. I really see absolutely *no point at all* in how adding even more castles will fix one thing, seeing as how three is too many atm. I keep seeing people saying how this will "increase the WoE population" but imho you wouldn't be increasing the "WoE population" you'd just be turning it into a new event entirely. I see people all the time saying that DoE is the problem, or lowering/low castles was the problem, but it's honestly not. People seem to think that large/strong guilds just became that way overnight. I have seen *so many* threads talking about how we need to fix woe by removing god items/mvp and miniboss carded items, that DoE needs to split up and fight themselves to fix WoE, the DoE needs to disband and *split up the vets between other guilds*. Please stop thinking of what WE need to do, and tell me what you plan on doing. I have yet to see a majority of people talk about manning up, gearing, leveling, and taking charge.

3. Please explain to me, without all this talk of mathematics and ratios, how adding even more castles will fix anything, honestly. We have three serious WoE guilds atm, three castles, and everyone seems to have a turtling mentality. If DoE is in Payon, you think anyone comes to fight them? No, 4SRS just stays in Geffen, and KoJ just stays in Pront. Then even if we go to Geffen to fight 4SRS they just stay in Geffen once we leave and go to Payon. Not knockin anyone's strategy, don't get me wrong, just saying that I am 99% sure that this talk of "rivalries" once all these castles are open, would be just a myth if it came to pass. You'd still have the same people, turtling the same emps, and then at the last 10 - 5 minutes each of the serious woe guilds would send out Sinxs to break everything they can to acquire more chests. That doesn't sound like much of a *War of Emperium* it sounds like a mess, and more of a *see which guild has the most sinxs* event. And please also don't say that these "last minute breaks" would "weaken the defense back at the main castle" because I don't think a handful of sinxs negate the performers, creators, champs, hwizs, and whatever else there is back at the main castle lol.

4. Thank you for that long list you put about everyone who was online during WoE for each guild, but while numbers do play a part, that's not the only thing behind it. Often times when I spoke with a friend of mine they'd complain how their guild had too many of one class and none of another. I can't speak for *Every large guild* but I can speak for DoE and typically before WoE we make sure we have a linker, and a breaker, and all the other necessities and ask people if they can play *what's needed* as opposed to ending up with let's say seven clowns, four gypsies, and no hwiz or Sinx. WoE is a *guild event* it takes planning and a certain amount of effort, it's not just mass pvp see how many people you can kill in 1 hour.

5. In conclusion, I think if anything to make WoE more of a *battle* castles should be reduced to two as they were before the population increase in the summer. If people want to WoE that's what they should *work for and come to do*. However, if all people want is more people taking emps, then please open all the castles, and we can watch every guild gear 1 SinX and watch them all scamper around wildly in the last 10 - 5 minutes, but don't call that a War of Emperium, cuz it's not much of a *War* at all.

6. As a side note, thanks for analyzing everything DoE did and did not do this WoE, and for calling us lazy when I saw everyone actively moving through the castle fighting whatever came into Geffen, we even went to Pront and Pay more than once, but glad you took the time to come and look at what each and every one of us were doing to come to that conclusion. I also find it kind of rude that you indirectly accuse current guild leaders of profiting in our backs lol. Unless I took that *and you trust 3 or 4 people to collect the loots* comment the wrong way, and yes I do trust 1 person to collect guild loots because guess what, they list those oh so precious wool scarfs and odins in the "Guild Equips" section of our forum. Not to mention the Yggs, Gold, and all else that gets handed out per request on our forums. Just thought I'd mention that since everyone seems to have gotten so hung up on Wools, Odin's, and other loots that drop from castle chests. And as a guild member of DoE I have never been denied a storage request nor seen anyone else be denied one either, so you really should watch out for those blanket statements.

TLDR; A novel in exchange for a novel. All the same things discussed earlier in other threads like this. Me being my good old DoE, Elitist self. ^?? ^

[Adrillf]

I understand where you think people would just stay together and work it out.

It makes sense.

Logically, you can get more done as one massive group, than splintering into a dozen smaller groups. But people aren't logically driven, they're reward driven.

If the, "let's just work it out and own the server as one massive guild" argument worked. There would be no DoE or 4srs, both founded and ran by splinter Behe members. They were self motivated and wanted to do things their way, so they broke off.

Logically, I agree. Smart people say, sit on a castle, get lots of people in there to defend and rake in the rewards. You get rewards for sitting in a castle, what's so bad about that? Reality says- people don't like being underlings. People want power and the ability to control what's going on in their lives and what's happening to them, so there will be splinter groups.

As for if there are people that think wool scarfs and odins are good items, go and look at @main and @at-ers in Prontera. If they're so useless why do they still sell? People on this server think that castle loot is good enough to not directly NPC, so it must be good enough for someone, so why not get those someones involved in WoE?

Here's the worst case scenario with those items that are so lowly in your mind that they're worthless- they already have +7 wool/tidal combos for their guild and they get one from a chest, suddenly they're able to contribute to the market and bring down the inflated prices that people always complain about, thus helping out a problem that isn't even the point of this thread! Fixing the market, a potential zenny sink, making WoE more exciting, and helping new people join WoE. Wow, this thing just might work. . . .??

As for a big guild monopolizing multiple castles- what's the harm in that? Assuming that it takes 3 people to set up a precast (wiz, bragi, trapper) that would mean that to hold another guild a 20 person defense in a castle, just became 3 people weaker. For each person that you send off to another castle, that's one less person defending it and opening yourself up to attack at your 100 eco home, and suddenly things get interesting, because yet again, people get selfish and don't know when to stop. Holding one castle, doable. 2 castles, a bit thinner. 3, 4, 5? Sooner or later the big guild is going to stretch themselves too thin, or not enough people are going to show up for WoE, and get attacked and loose that 100 eco castle that they love so much to a smaller guild.

They might be able to take it back, but I think we've all see just how dangerous two/three guilds all going at one castle at the same time can be on WoE activity (FINALLY EXCITEMENT!) as well as the eco of the castle. And so just imagine if the announcement gets out that the ultimate 100 eco castle has just gotten broken and instead of 3 guilds being online all pushing through and trying to get their greedy little hands on it, there are 15 guilds that try to push in. Then, while those 15 guilds are out trying to be selfish, there's bound to be at least 3-4 rational minds that say to not go there, and they take the castles that were just left by the other guilds, which then creates more panic and confusion. HOLY COW! WoE JUST BECAME INTERESTING!

Also- I'm not saying that this is a permanent solution. If I'm wrong, and if people are as morally good and act for the greater good as you're saying they are instead of being self centered maniacs, and the open castles don't get used and it doesn't work, the GM's can just as easily close them down and mark it up as a mistake. What's the worst that's going to happen? 2 months of 20 castles? Even if nothing happens and the only thing that gets done is nothing but eco investments on 20 castles for 2 months straight, that's one really huge zenny sink (which the GM's like for the most part).

I have insomnia (again) so I'm going to do some more math on that, just for the fun of it. Feel free to skip to the next person's post.

If 20 castles were to all start at 0 eco and be held for 2 months, how much zenny would that cost? In this, we're going to assume that there are no lucky guild skill triggered double investments, that there are no breaks of castle ownership, and that the guild leader is a good guild leader and invests twice a day. I'm running off the chart found here http://www.ro-guardians.com/forums/archi...-8246.html for this math. If it's different for our server, I apologize, it's the only one that I could find on a quick google search.

In 1 week, each castle would cost 440k, sucking 8.8 mil out of the server.
In 2 weeks (28 investments), each castle would cost 2,435k total, sinking 48.7 mil from the server, and that's only getting each castle up to 28 eco in 2 weeks.
In one month (60 investments), it would cost one guild 17,415,000 z to get their castle to 60 eco. That means that on the server as a whole, those 20 castles just sucked in 348,300,000 z.

Do I really need to go on?

60-64 costs 4,345,000
65-69 costs 5,060,000
70-74 costs 5,830,000
75-79 costs 6,655,000
80-84 costs 7,535,000
85-89 costs 8,470,000
90-94 costs 9,460,000
95-99 costs 10,545,000

For a grand total of taking one castle from 0-max eco being-
75,315,000 z.

20 castles would eat up
1,506,300,000 z.

As stated in one of my early posts in this thread: Hello zenny sink- my name is castle eco.

Back to the comment about investment vs rewards, look at the investment cost for chests at higher eco.
0 eco- 5k/ 4 chests = roughly 1k/chest
max eco 955k/ 24 chests = roughly 40k/chest.
You're paying 40 times more per chest than lower eco castles looting only once a day.

If you loot twice a day the second loot goes a bit like this-
0 eco- 20k/4 chests = 5k/chest
max eco- 3820k/24 chests = roughly 159k/chest.
Here you're paying about 32 times more per chest than a 0 eco castle.

My math might be wrong, feel free to check it and fix it because I know that I might have screwed up some of the mechanics in there somewhere. The exact percentages and rates might be off, but the fact is low eco castles get more chests for lest of an investment cost, and people will want that, so they will leave.

Why pay 40k a chest when you can pay 1k for the exact same chest? (and also all of that stuff about man hours per chest as well)

[Adrillf]

Yet again, I find it humorous and very ironic that people are now talking about how no one would leave or break off from a main guild for their own reasons. Really? REALLY? There's never been a break off from a guild for personal reasons? You really can't see that happening?

As for any previous reviews about today's WoE, it was purely on my bias that I enjoy a fight, not turtling. Turtling has it's uses and it makes for great god item farming, but it also makes for really boring WoE's.

If you want to turtle, go for it, but you can't turtle down and then wonder why no one likes bashing their head against a wall and complain about it. If you're going to defend and spend all of your resources on defense, then people won't fight you, your defense worked. Good job. But does that mean that just because you can defend one castle that other people, or heaven forbid- new people, would want the chance at a castle as well?

Not to mention there are some of us that want to run through castles and fight and be in small organized groups fighting back and forth because we find that fun, and this solution of opening up everything would allow those who want to turtle, to turtle away, and for those of us who want to romp around and kill each other senselessly to do that as well (and get a small reward for it at the same time). PvP rooms are boring because it's the same map, same room, and no fun WoE reductions (yes they are fun) so don't tell me to just hang out in pvp. Also BG, as fun as that might be is about as boring as pvp because there's one map, it's wide open, there's no choke points, and the randomized groups, as much as I understand why they're there and their necessity, really do suck.

I'm saying, open things up and let people try something else out besides turtling.

Right now people only turtle because that's the only option. You turtle because the one person in charge wants chests, and because that's the most efficient way to keep your chests.

But if you're turtling, realize that you can't have it both ways.
You can't turtle and then expect people to attack you endlessly without rewards.
How would reducing things make it any better? 2 guilds turtle down, kill anything that walks in, no one wants to try.
I'm all for being powerful, I'm all for having veteran players and great gears. I'm just saying let those new people on the server have their chance of having fun in WoE and doing something besides running against a turtled guild for 2 hours every week with the only thing to show from it being a few WoE points.

And let me apologize for my one overstatement that people might get denied items from guild storage. That was wrong of me to say. DoE members, feel free to clean everything out of storage, you won't get told no.

One thing that I would like to address is this discussion about what is and is not a WoE.

It's been used a bunch of times within this thread about what makes a WoE and what does not make a WoE. So, I would like an explanation from people on this- what makes a WoE? Apparently not what the majority of this server is doing during WoE time constitutes a WoE to you, so I would like to understand what you consider a WoE.

[Ellie]

Adrillf Wrote:Logically, you can get more done as one massive group, than splintering into a dozen smaller groups. But people aren't logically driven, they're reward driven.

If the, "let's just work it out and own the server as one massive guild" argument worked. There would be no DoE or 4srs, both founded and ran by splinter Behe members. They were self motivated and wanted to do things their way, so they broke off.

I would hardly call the reason for 4srs' appearance as "reward driven".



Sure, you can open all castles for 2 months and sink 8.8mil per castle or whatever the hell.

Now, what happens when you're going to close them? Whose will you close?
From my knowledge, a guild has always had to come forward and offer to close their castle for fairness reasons. This time, you're expecting 17-18 of these to happen.


In this situation, GMs would pretty much be bound to say "We're only opening it for 2 months as testing", in which players may very well not risk the eco investment until they know for certain, because we both know there would be a huge shitstorm of all sorts if nothing was said, and 2 months later they claim "Of, by the way, it was just a test, and now we're just removing all that eco you put into these castles and the castles. Have fun!"



But then, heRO makes a shitstorm over everything. Ohmygodtherearemerchantsinmytownandthey'reheretoannoyusonly
andtotallynotbecausewe'reinthearcherjobchangetownornearwolvesornearspores
orpayondungeon!

[proto]

4srs is recruiting pm me for details

Also I don't think people split from behe because they were reward-driven. I think it was more logic-driven.

[Adrillf]

Either way people are going to complain. There's always people complaining, and it's a risk I think that's worth it. What's the worst thing that's going to happen? People leave? WoE gets even more boring?

On the question of large MvP killing- heaven forbid you party with someone outside of your guild! I know it's crazy talk, but there is no limitations to partying outside of your guild.

Anyone remember the original party that killed bee first? Anyone want to go through how many guilds were involved in that? Hint: more than 2. And yet that group of people managed a way to distribute drops and work together. Crazy, I know, but it can be done outside of a guild setting.

Reward driven = anything that you gain from your actions. They gained what they wanted. It wasn't for the greater good of Behe, it was their personal reasons and the rewards that they got from it, whatever that would be. They thought about themselves and their needs over the larger group that they were part of. Nothing is wrong about it, I'm just calling it what it is. People want what they want, it's what makes us do things.

As for the logic driven argument- you're logically moving away from god items? Logically moving away from the oldest active guild on the server? Gamer logic says stay. Personal motivation and desire for something different says leave.

[proto]

Adrillf Wrote:Reward driven = anything that you gain from your actions. They gained what they wanted. It wasn't for the greater good of Behe, it was their personal reasons and the rewards that they got from it, whatever that would be. They thought about themselves and their needs over the larger group that they were part of. Nothing is wrong about it, I'm just calling it what it is. People want what they want, it's what makes us do things.

As for the logic driven argument- you're logically moving away from god items? Logically moving away from the oldest active guild on the server? Gamer logic says stay. Personal motivation and desire for something different says leave.

I read and laughed =X

[Adrillf]

Admittedly I don't know the reason you left, but from a 3rd person perspective it's how I see it.

What can 4srs do now that they couldn't do in Behe? They can run things the way they want. That's personal motivation if I've ever seen it. The most logic I can see is as follow: I want it this way, but I can't have it this way here, therefore I have to leave.

[Deviluke]

You're quite funny actually. You barely addressed anything I said and just repeated yourself like a broken record and threw around calculations about zenny sinks. God that math is so intimidating, I'm scared. D=

You indirectly supported my point actually. lol If the "FINALLY EXCITEMENT" comes when two to three guilds are all in one castle, why not just reduce it and start WoE out like that. Why should we have to wait, and "thin ourselves out" to get excitement between what? 9 people? Since YOU said theoretically there'd be 2 - 3 people in each of these castles. Isn't a clash of 20 - 30 people much more fun that 9? Dno about you but I'd have to say yes on that one.

I also think it's a bit late in the game to seriously expect guilds like DoE/Behe/4SRS/KoJ to actually split themselves up into little 2 - 3 person guilds, again following YOUR logic and YOUR calculations. I don't think that after months/years of working together someone would literally just take 2 friends and be like, sup bro let's go get us some Wools and Odin's. Yes splits happen, trios or duos are kinda rare, just sayin.

I love how you assume that people would be so die hard investing in these 20 castles if again following YOUR logic before, we'd each take 1, my god maybe 2, main eco castles per "large guild" Then these calculations for all 20 castles being huge eco sinks is invalid because they wouldn't be used. lol And yes ofc, we'll only have 2 months of 20 castles, that's why come what? 6 months or so later, and near 20+ threads complaining about castles we still have 3? lol Funny how you expect them to fix it so quickly but then again I dont expect it to happen since that would be god knows how much work for them and I don't think a handful of people is really a big enough base to make such a large change.

It's also kind of funny how you mistook my sarcasm about the guild loot thing. I quite frankly, could care less what happens to the wools and what not. If I need odin's I go farm them with guildies, I don't wait with baited breath for them to drop from a chest. Not to mention with how many nameless parties there are, I find your argument of there being such a "deprived/inflated market for them" kind of laughable. Not to mention, hey if people got out of nameless once in a while they might end up at a place like Odins Temple and drop some OBs, what a crazy idea. Much better to just wait for good ol' treasure chest god to drop 'em.

Please, if you wanna keep talking about zenny sinks and throwing around tons of calculations, imo by all means make a new thread and suggest more zenny sinks lol. We're trying to talk of how to make WoE "more of a battle" not how to "better fix the economy through WoE". You tend to drown out your points by trying to touch on "all these other wondrous things that your plans include for us".

I also at no point said there was a problem with large guilds monopolizing multiple castles, but I gave you a specific scenario which you didn't answer or respond to at all, and instead just copy and pasted your own scenario and went on and on about how it will "fix all". I am trying to tell you clearly "large guilds will not sent small parties out to defend said castles" they "most likely, following example" wait for last 5 min, send a handful of sinxs out to just mass break whatever they can, and end with what they can. They won't make the effort to defend it.

Like I said in my first post, it sounds like you wanna change WoE from a competitive event into a, let's get some pals, hug an emp, and roll around in the treasure room type deal. Fine, if that's what you prefer then that's fine, but as I said don't try to call it a war of emperium since you changing a guild event into a trio-ish event in which "everyone wins". Guess everyone will take that wrong since as a DoE memeber I'm automatically labeled an elitist, but don't see how taking the competitive nature out of a "competitive event" fixes 1 thing.

Please though, respond to this by just repeating your points, ignoring mine, and throwing more math around to make your points look validated. ^??^

[proto]

Adrillf Wrote:Admittedly I don't know the reason you left, but from a 3rd person perspective it's how I see it.

What can 4srs do now that they couldn't do in Behe? They can run things the way they want. That's personal motivation if I've ever seen it. The most logic I can see is as follow: I want it this way, but I can't have it this way here, therefore I have to leave.

They can mvp and get loots
They seem to woe a little better now
Things benefit the guild as a whole compared to select individuals

or at least thats what i heard.