Make WoE more of a battle.

[Adrillf]

ChaosPrince Wrote:Thara, Scarf, CK, BG Glorious SET, F. Beret +21k hp = you can tank a semi-geared asura (no lex, no assump)

21k HP? You must be playing swordie classes more than anything else. If you're fat and have the ability to run 99 vit without having to worry about str, int, or dex of any sort, then yes, 21k and tanking poorly geared asuras is possible. You might be able to survive a poorly geared asura with that set up, I just don't see you surviving even a super poorly geared AD.

For the rest of us that have to deal with the reality of well geared asuras and a lack of a 21k hp pool, you can't just say that BG gears are going to save our butts. BG gears are good, but they're not THAT good.

Prove me wrong, make a HW that doesn't have a horrible matk or cast time, while still having that many reductions and that large of a HP pool, and I might start considering that your argument is valid, but I seriously doubt that you can.

[raphael.cruger]

@azurerogue : Where you get your players is considerably less important than keeping them. All of the ways to "pull" you suggested are viable. So?

If you think you can get 800(+500 for a weapon) points in BG without learning to play your class idk what to say. BG not only gears you it teaches you to play your class. Your debate on excellence is irrelevant.

@aldriff

Sinxes don't run agi in WoE for the most part(exceptions), they run vit, they have high HP mods and can easily get that HP, glorious set is +35% HP. Not only does it take a very well geared asura to kill you it also requires you to have max SP, something a lot of champs atm don't even bother with.

Champs are supposed to one shot you, if you make a champ it would one shot people, right?

Adrillf Wrote:For the rest of us that have to deal with the reality of well geared asuras and a lack of a 21k hp pool, you can't just say that BG gears are going to save our butts. BG gears are good, but they're not THAT good.

How many times must I say this.
They are.

BG gear is intended to make WoE about skill and numbers not gear, that is their purpose. The accumulation of mini boss and mvp cards is what made gravity design them in the first place. if you ignore it you are one of those people who whines about the problem while being slapped in the head with the solution.

Adrillf Wrote:Prove me wrong, make a HW that doesn't have a horrible matk or cast time, while still having that many reductions and that large of a HP pool, and I might start considering that your argument is valid, but I seriously doubt that you can.

The Warlocks set has a more than decent chance to turn ghost property for 10 seconds(with marc still working ofc).

Owned.?? \o/

Aside from that, Hwiz are supportive class in WoE, if you are trying to kill people chances are you are stupidly easy to be killed yourself, that's the trade off, you can't have your cake and eat it too.??Aside from that its not pvp, if you're a wiz you're not supposed to be rushing into a big mob of players to die, learn your class.

Not to mention if you DO try to kill people with a pure matk Hwiz, you will never ever succeed in killing people who have glorious gear and pot in a WoE build 1 on 1. In a precast properly protected by his guild mates is a int dex Hwizards place, not tanking asura on the front jeez.

ASIDE from that even if you WERE a int/dex Hwiz (that acknowledged the existence of that stat vit and the item white potion) with BG gear you would STILL be hard to kill outside of being gang banged or Asura'd.

BG gear may seem like a tiny 16% but let me tell you that I had pretty much 0 survivability without it. Raydric is worthless, so easy to bypass, the massive and attainable 58% demi human resistance(68% with a CK) is the order of the day.

Not to mention, all the supposedly OP people you talk about use BG weapons, champs use BG maces, sinxes and WS use BG katar and medals, Acid demo creators use bragi and medals(AD is suck without bragi on BG gear except it will break it lol FCP is a requirement).
BG weapons PENALIZE non BG gear. Their def piercing and huge racial modifiers mean anyone NOT wearing BG gear is almost surely dead(looks at some people on this forum).

All that and, everyone has to get their OWN BG gear, non transferable. This means if richer members gear their guild mates they cannot do so past a point.

[azurerogue]

raphael.cruger Wrote:If you think you can get 800(+500 for a weapon) points in BG without learning to play your class idk what to say. BG not only gears you it teaches you too play your class. Your debate on excellence is irrelevant.

Unfortunately this is not true.??The roles in WoE/BG are very different for most classes.??That's because the goals of WoE and BG are very different.??In BG your team (randomly assigned, so this does NOT help you practice working with one team specifically) is meant to kill the other team.??In WoE, your team is meant to break the emperium (or keep it from being broken).

In BG, everything and everyone should be working to eliminate the enemy.??In WoE, the only reason to eliminate an enemy is if they are a threat to your overall team strategy.??

Because heRO does not allow standard BG (with players choosing their teams), Battelgrounds will never be a substitue for the teamplay aspect of WoE.??Battlegrounds is often one or two people doing important things while the rest of the team "tries" to help.??This isn't conducive to excellent team play.

Because the goals are so vastly different, performing well in BG does not guarantee transfer to performance in WoE.??Showing off your e-peen by killing people in BG does not mean you're a great WoE player.??Sure it will help you get better gear, but learning to kill people in BG doesn't mean you learn how to prioritize targets based on their ability to hamper your team strategy - that's not what BG is usually about.

EXAMPLE: Let's say I want to kill people, so I play Albus (my Prof) as a bolter with some pretty sweet gear in BG for a while to earn all my badges. Does this make me good at WoE? Obviously not - because when I WoE I play Full Support Prof (because bolters suck in terms of team contribution, even when they CAN kill people in WoE, which is rare).

So yes, my debate on excellence is relevant because it directly impacts how hard it is to form a coherent, new WoE guild that can actually stand a chance.??It takes more than 3 months.??

Lastly, I would argue almost none of my ways to "pull" players are viable - they all are difficult and would make getting 20 people into a guild a massive effort in and of itself - so that is still relevant to this conversation as well.??Unfortunately, in logical/rational arguments you can't just disregard points because you don't want to respond to them.

[Aaronock]

Quote:Aside from that, Hwiz are supportive class in WoE, if you are trying to kill people chances are you are stupidly easy to be killed yourself, that's the trade off, you can't have your cake and eat it too.??Aside from that its not pvp, if your a wiz your not supposed to be rushing into a big mob of players to die, learn your class.

Not to mention if you DO try to kill people with a pure matk Hwiz, you will never ever succeed in killing people who have glorious gear and pot in a WoE build 1 on 1. In a precast properly protected by his guildmates is a int dex Hwizards place, not tanking asura on the front jeez.

High MATK wiz may not be going for one shots, but they put a LOT of pressure on the field, nobody freaking uses Devotion really in WoE on this server, and this is why MATK wiz hasn't been given its proper dues. Also bragi'd JT is freaking sick in a proper team setup.??Gets even better if you have Glorious Staff of Destruction or Warlock Battle Wand. :x

Some MVP/Miniboss cards are still pretty freaking sick and nothing compares nearly, Kiel, Hibram, GTB, Maya Pee, Angeling, Deviling, just to name a few off of my head.??

Not all champs need to go for one shots, when you have a good HW, WS, Sinx, and Creator to help you in applying said pressure damage.??You at best as a champ want to make sure you're able to die with the paladin after fisting him (happens due to reflect).??You doing anything more than that and you're going for a huge overkill imo. =/

BTW, I don't have BG gear, and from when I WoE'd late last year didn't really have any probs on Gypsy.??Sure, BG gear would be better tweakage if I got the archer armor set, but its not NECESSARY.??It is however, easier to acquire a BG set over time than the kinds of gears that I use, but mine can be used anywhere, anytime.??BG gears are only good for the most part vs demi human monsters. ;(

In other words, you're overstating the power of BG gears. There are plenty of times its fine to get by without and you still will die to asura either way lol.

Edit: Bleh typos

[raphael.cruger]

Gonna stay on topic. maybe not..

BG gears are the SHORTEST way to get from noob --> not noob for a new player who is interested in WoE and does not have any pvp gear other than a shield. You'd be very very hard pressed to find better gear as a newbie, and once you have enough to rock feel free to camp MvPs all day and night.

Working together to eliminate the enemy > not knowing how to work together at all or even play your class or even having 0 experience. So your saying BG is useless and should be avoided by people who want to WoE? Please, don't argue for the sake or argument, there will always be an if and or but.

In any case you'll see if you read I was talking of a hypothetical group of 20-25 people who know what WoE is and what to do already. Without BG it could take 6 months to get rays wools tidals, over a year to get anything along the lines or proxies or mvp cards, w/e and you still won't be nearly as effective as if you just went. and. BGed.
Obviously in the current scenario it would take longer, especially since people are largely unmotivated to WoE. Still largely possible though that's all I'm saying. Some of the people posting here belong to guilds who co ordinate very well but die way too much to be effective, BG gear is the answer for them.

@Aaro

Anything that makes you take off marc can be exploited, you gain resistance to one thing and lose something else. Deviling's weaknesses are obvious, especially since converters are everywhere, GTB, kiel increase the player requirement of the opposing force by 1 or max 2 per PERSON using them. Hibram will put pressure sure but still won't kill anyone even with BG staffs(if you have BG set, else refer to dead people, another reason to get it thank you Aaro). Not to mention his HP will be low and he's liable to be one shotted. If your potting ranked whites and have anything more than 70 vit I can tell you with 100% surety you wont be dying to JT, and if your good you'll use a wind resist pot and laugh at it, BG staff pierces mdef but glorious gear has no mdef anyway.
Again argument for the sake of it, yadayada surely someone can swap, and when he does swap you better have a clown to frost joke(or an LK to spear boom), infact make one to do so anyway, just to make sure, end result of gr? Add 1 clown to team 2 for all the grs please. GTB? Sinx + Prof, there's always a counterblahblahblah can we stay on topic please?
Only things that don't have a fairly simple counter, Megingards(far too many of these),(still won't be one shotted if you have glorious gear and decent vit, else the corpses are piling~~) and slotted mids. Those 2 things are a tad overpowered but not present in a high enough concentration YET, hopefully further damage will be avoided..

All of this is off topic...

@thoseconcerned::
Good way to win in WoE :: Make a forum thread to whine about how its impossible, whine about how OP everyone else is and use it as an excuse to not gear yourself or motivate your team. Kudos bros.

You asked for a solution and you were given one(not by me god no i didn't script BG), its not the only solution definitely not, and recruiting and getting more people and conceivably a guild or 2 to the server would definitely improve things, but they don't suck now, don't say they suck just because you die to Asura. Get off your butt and go do something about it.

[Aaronock]

The point is still as a team or even solo you don't need BG gears, and there are plenty of great MVP cards that still work great in WoE, even if you don't default to them all the damn time.

BTW, HW can go for Staff of Destruction if he hasn't got BG staff and he'd be fine too using that in precast. One handed he'll probably be lugging Int Survivor's Rod or Staff of Piercing. Bet you that you can get all 3 of these wands unrefined for under 10 mil, which in newbie terms means farm hill winds or rach sanc for 3 days lol.

By the way, some of the BG staffs add additional damage to demi human types, closest way to explain this is that its like having a hydra for magic instead of phys. Glorious Staff of Destruction does do a 25% mdef pierce but that's not why you'd be using it anyway. =/

So yah, everything has a counter, but that doesn't mean BG gears are the be all and end all of the game. <_>

[raphael.cruger]

There is no end all of the game. That's the point.
Thank you <3


lawl EDIT:: No end all but BG gear is pretty damn close. There. Someone complained I was letting you off too easy rofl.

[Deviluke]

As for BG being experience to WoE situations, I would say there is *some* that BG is useful for teaching and some things that you simply cant learn from BG and need to actually go to WoE for. (I think this argument was made a bit earlier.) I mean not everyone on the team necessarily rushes to kill everyone. There are some FS Profs who go without intent to kill and do *almost* the same things they would do in WoE, and speaking of myself personally I go on Gypsy which is kinda useless in BG (not gonna lie) unless there's an actual need for Slow Grace, a situation scream would actually work, or a lucky coma card. There are some people who play as team killers and some who play as support for a team, Not everyone is a blood thirsty killer jumping the gate at go. I personally play support in the form of bait (since people love to Asura and SB me /gg lol), but then again in a WoE setting I'm typically standing on Lokis as AD or GT bait, or dying rushing people with Slow Grace in boredom so seems legit in terms of training. XD

I wouldn't say that BG gear is a ticket to taking a *Noob* to WoE ready alone because the journey to get the BG gears as a person needing BG gears could be traumatizing. People who take BG seriously really hate people going in without gears and consider them "leechers" since they *usually* offer nothing to their team. (There are a few exceptions but typically that's the result.) So if they're actually willing to stick out the hate for (I forget is it 800 points for BG set?) that long is commendable. A more practical way would be to get basic PvP/WoE gears and then go for BG gears but that would take a long time, we're talking of speed, and this is kind of off topic but I figured I'd stick that point in there as an argument of how BG gear isn't necessarily the ticket to WoE success.

Also, BG gears aren't the end all be all of the game, but keeping up with the times they are kind of necessary. With Black Belts, BG set, CK and FB SL can get a decently high amount of hp and reducts which is pretty needed for rushing a precast, since there are certain trans locked gears that aren't available to them. As for Gypsy, (I only speak of these 2 since I played/mained them, I'm sure there's other examples.) Using BG set I can usually tank SBs that I couldn't without it, and I even tanked 2 Asuras (Though they probably weren't full SP and it was luck lol). So they really are worth getting imo. From what I hear *some* of the gears can be useful outside of WoE, for example the rings are useful in other instances than BG due to the Ele-resistance. Maybe we should just start using BG gears to rock Bio3 parties, you never hear of those happening often /gg .-.

[Aaronock]

Deviluke Wrote:Maybe we should just start using BG gears to rock Bio3 parties, you never hear of those happening often /gg .-.

Seyren and Eremes will want to have a threesome when you wear your BG set.??Eremes will come out of hiding and sonic blow you, and then Seyren will stick his ding-a-ling out and spiral pierce you.

AKA: There be more than demi humans down there, there be vile demons lurking below them labs.

[Adrillf]

Quick point to ponder: We don't have the full list of iRO BG gears, so stop talking about 3rd classes and how things work with them and their specific BG gears. We don't have them, your point, although valid on a server with 3rd classes and BG gears, is about as worth while as trying to pay your electric bill by telling the electric company that you'll send them some zenny instead.

And as for this conversation that has recycled around about a billion times through the history of this game in different variations and forms the argument is a super form of paper rock scissors.

The arguments break down to one of the following:
-Get better gears and you'll win.
-Use more consumables and you'll win.
-Have more people on your side and you'll win.
-Know how to use your class and you'll win.

One other variation on this include an increase of levels trumping whatever your problem might be, but that doesn't fit into a specific spot, it's just a general catch all. Get more levels than the other people and you can trump their gears, skills, mob, and consumables.

It is not exclusively one or the other that make a strong WoE guild, it's a mix of all of them. You can get 76 people online for WoE pushing, but if they don't know what they're doing it's useless. One does not trump the other, they are more or less balanced in how to do well.

Everyone has a different way of playing a WoE character. There are some generic ideas out there that are strongly suggested like thara frog and f.berets. However, when it comes down to which gear set is the best, and how exactly to go about what you like doing the best, there is no right answer. Sometimes people want to think outside of the box. Sometimes people don't want to wear thara because they think they have something better. To say that your way is the right and only way and the rest of the ideas are invalid is just setting yourself up for ridicule.

Back to the point of this thread-
This is not our WoE- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYHC7wlAcgM And there's not a chance in the world that it could ever be our WoE

This is a little bit more of the flavor of our WoE- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLKttUivEh0 And no amount of 'you noobs need to (insert argument here)' will change that because there's just not the desire for people to come and join.

What's going to bring new people in? What's going to give a new person the desire to give HeRO WoE a shot?