Card Removal - before complaining after reading the title, read the damn thread

[Menace651]

(12-28-2016 10:17 PM)The Roger Wrote:  Aaronock, i meant that the people who already have a GR in valk are the ones caring less about removing a GR from a non valk armor, for they it will be already good to keep the "good-for-retro-woe" GR as it is if they have that along the valk GR.

Who instead doesnt have yet a GR will either farm it or buy/trade it, and even a +4 Cotton Shirt [GR] will retain its Ghostring Card value, instead of being devalued because its a "cotton-shirt-GR". I hope its more clear =_=

Anyway, woe isnt made only by GR or Not-GR :o


For the cost it may detect which card type is, if normal or miniboss/mvp and apply proper cost.

I could see people wanting to move their mvp/miniboss cards around to put into lesser armors for woe/leveling purposes and vice versa. For example putting a gr/devi from a trans armor to a non trans for easily leveling a new character or for retro woe and then swapping it back to a trans armor for regular woe or rebirth leveling.

This is why if a card npc were implemented it would have to come with restrictions and a steep but reasonable cost to prevent this kind of abuse and to force people to farm for new gears/cards.

[Plant]

While I somehow agree that a card removal NPC should be added, at the same time I don't agree with its currently proposed rules/clauses. It's pretty much understandable that the hot issue with decarding in general is mainly about the super important cards such as deviling, ghostring, etc. cards, but let's face it, guys - What difference does it make for someone to

Option A: wait till they get a +10 [insert gear] and then slot in their [insert card]

than

Option B: to slot [insert card] into [insert weaker gear] and then decard and slot into [insert stronger gear]?

Only difference is probably how tedious it is to get another card, but the end result is just the same.

____________________________________________________

But the point I'm writing this is because I prefer something extra from the NPC if it is ever added. With the current suggested fee of 100m zeny, no one would be dumb enough to do an act such as decarding their useless poring cards from their gears. What I would prefer from the card removal NPC is that it allows extraction of lower class cards at a much lower fee, and also the option to extract your gear, sacrificing the card in the process.

Let's say that ghostring card have a fee of 100m zeny to be decarded from its gear. Sure, seems fair. But a zombie card removal should not be charged with the same fee. Maybe give it like a base 500k zeny fee (or maybe 50k even) for low-class cards but increases based on how valuable, going up to 100m zeny or higher.

Since I'm proposing card removal for lesser cards at a lower cost, I think I should at least provide a new list of pros and cons.

Possible pros of card/gear extraction

1. These low tier cards will see some use for newer players, and not be restricted to become only Hatter/NPC fodder just because it becomes useless after a while when slotted into something.
Example: Minnt makes a thief bug carded armor for his early leveling days. Due to thief bug armor being crap at higher levels cause ancient mimic card exists, Minnt feels really sad. But Minnt have the option to extract either his armor or card! Thief bug card can used for hatter while the armor can maybe can be used as home for another card. It's Minnt's choice (for maybe 500k zeny)!

2. Players will not hesitate to use some of their card on their unrefined/refined gears to enhance their leveling/grinding experience.
Example: Minnt have a bunch of low tier cards and he is currently using a Clip [1]. Maybe he can just add something into the clip to improve his stats so he can hit nekorings. Minnt cards in his worm tail (or zerom) card because he knows he can extract it later if anyone dare laugh at him for having such bad choice of accessory!

3. Allows players to aim for weaker armors/weapons first before upgrading/optimizing their gears.
Example: Minnt somehow obtained an Alice card, but sadly he'll never ever slot it into anything at all until he has his +8 Stone Buckler. But no worries, he slot it into one of his +4 Stone Buckler for now and can just unslot it when he ever gets a +8 Stone Buckler! (for a fee of maybe 10m-50m zeny)

4. A lot of card will have temporarily higher value to them rather than having zero/little value.
Example: Elder Willow feels unloved by the community in heRO because his card is never considered to be slotted in headgears mainly due to the existence of Isilla card with a better card art card effect. But now, at least Elder Willow card gets some love before he is discarded for an Isilla card (and used for Mage Hat quest)!

5. More room to experiment with cards/gears without risking it being nullified by its eternal uselessness/under-performance when slotted into bad gears.
Example: Minnt can now rest easy knowing that he can slot a random Wootan Shooter card into his Zodiac Stone [1] to test out how good it is, without having to make another Zodiac Stone if the wings end up being god awful.

Possible cons of card/gear extraction

1. Players might never need more than one to four of each card unless they plan to have different versions of gear with the same card(s).
Example: Cinnt isn't that satisfied with having Imp Bradium Earrings only, so she hunts two more imp cards for her Imp Harthoons. However, Minnt is happy with his Imp Earrings after having them moved from his Clips so he probably won't ever bother hunting/buying imp cards ever again.

2. There might be less demands for cards due to players possibly needing only one to four.
Example: See above.

While this may somehow damage the economy (economy is already being damaged/nonexistent like Roger stated, but it is not an excuse to let it be damaged further unless there's reasons for it), I believe the addition of card removal, with some tweaks to its current suggested rules, may improve player experience when it comes to getting geared for parties/leveling/farming.

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Card removal serves to make what already is possible less tedious, and makes carding mistakes forgiving. Such a feature that makes processes less tedious should be included in games, especially in 2016. But, a server feature that only the rich can ever hope to use is a dumb server feature to me. If card removal NPC is ever added, make it so that it has a much lower fee for the less useful cards so that newer (or old but poor) players can make use of it. Mini-boss/boss cards can stay as pricey as 100m zeny. Of course, some other balance changes can be considered to counteract the efficiency that this card removal NPC provides, other than high price or card/gear destruction.

Edit: Not voting in the pool because it doesn't have the option I want.

[The Roger]

(12-28-2016 10:17 PM)The Roger Wrote:  For the cost it may detect which card type is, if normal or miniboss/mvp and apply proper cost.

@Minnntre: yeah, i thought it too after.

(12-29-2016 05:44 AM)minnntre Wrote:  *Minnntre post*

Yes, my proposal of how the npc would be was a primitive creation; it must be refined on whats it asks, if it retrieve the card only or has an option for the gear instead of the card, the costs... etc. And i wanted to hear ideas from others

But the idea i have in mind is: yes, putting there the possibility of choosing to use the removal service (for cards or gears) but with a cost, not prohibitive, that makes you not consider it as a primary choice.

Example: if i have a hatter card type slotted into a gear, as the value of 1 hatter card is attested at 300kZ, the cost of revoming it will be higher than the value of the card.
So: why retrieve my hatter card from a gear if with the cost to do it i can buy 2 from the market, dropped/farmed/etc by someone?

And yes, some card prices can fluctuate (these days its extremely difficult to hold a gear/card price firm, because as i said demand/offer are scarce) but to be somehow sure to make Card/Gear removing service a not-primary-choice, the cards removing should cost way more than the (actual? past trending?) price of those.
Hatter card value: 300k, cost removing: 600k
Alice card: 37M today: removing cost: 50M? 60M?
GR card: not sure about its price, in the past was 800M, removing cost: not more than 100/200M, because if its like the price of this card or higher, then the time spent to clump 500M/800M/1B zeny can be spent farming the actual GRs and drop a new card.

So mvp/miniboss removal should have a fixed arbitral cost.
(im not including in miniboss card list the cards of those monsters flagged bosstype like the ones at the top floors of Thanatos Tower, or in Orcus Basement, but only Angeling, Deviling, MP, GR... etc, to be clear)
Some very useful cards (like the mentioned Alice) are not miniboss/mvp but they should cost accordingly to their price to be removed.


On the other part, evaluating a card is easy and somehow a finite load of work, but if one selects to save the gear instead of the card, how much it should cost?
The price of the gear, or the price of the card?
There are thousands of different gears, enchanted or not, refined of not, so to cut the problem i think the cost it will be unique and attested at the price card removing has.

Example: proxy with raydric card
proxy value, 200M in the past, today i dont know.
raydric card, 15/20M, last i sold was at 18MZ, so removing this card will cost around 30Mz.
if the cost is set for gears too (and it will a unending amount of work) proxy retrieving should cost like 100M? It seems unrealistinc to make it costs 300M or more.

And what if the proxy is +7? 1BZ of price? 2BZ? usually +7 armors decuplicates the value than the 0~+4 counterparts. So retrieving a +7 Proxy will costs 3BZ?
Its totally unrealistic.

And we can assume that the work to separate the card from the gear is the same as separate the gear from the card (lets not think about sacrifing one part in favor to extract intact the other, but more like "with my magic i can separate the two, but then the ritual demand a sacrifice and i can choose to let it take the card OR the gear")

So you can retrieve the gears at the cost of the card its in it.

[Haunted]

I don't care about card removal npc when it comes to non-mvp cards. However, the having an option to remove an MVP card from a gear at no risk at all seems too broken to me, even if it's at super high prices...

In my opinion, making a card remover npc that removes a card and destroys its gear or vice versa may be a good idea if its a CHANCE game. i.e the player may choose to destroy the gear and retain the card at say 70% chance of successfully retaining the card. or destroy the card and retain the gear at 70% chance of retaining the gear. This is only fair as most NPC's that include messing with gears such as refining or enchanting rely on taking risks and chances.

Actually, scratch that... having a 50% chance to either retain the card OR the armour would be fair enough too, and would restrict players abusing the npc to constantly remove mvp cards back and forth into different gears.

Of course this should still happen at a high price for mvp cards (whats 100mil for a holder of multiple mvp cards? unless they were handed down the cards, in which case they suck.) but my point is to make the card removal a chance game and not a 100% thing.

P.S. Roger your poll sucks and is too biased for your own interest. I refuse to vote


EDIT after seeing your newest post:

Quote:Example: if i have a hatter card type slotted into a gear, as the value of 1 hatter card is attested at 300kZ, the cost of revoming it will be higher than the value of the card.
So: why retrieve my hatter card from a gear if with the cost to do it i can buy 2 from the market, dropped/farmed/etc by someone?

You just gave a great example of what I mean; I have a hatter card in a slotted mids, if I choose to remove that card and keep the mids it would be too easy and unfair imo. But making it a chance game to either retain the mids or the hatter card would make things much more interesting and at the same time more balanced!

[Keegan]

IMO its pointless to have the cost higher then the market price of the card, because at the current point in time there is no demand for cards. People would simply buy a second card ( or piece of gear if that's what they were after).

Here are a few ideas:
For cards

• I would recommend 3 price points: normal, mini boss and MVP cards. The normal price should not be higher then the cost of a hatter card (Also it does not sound like people have an issue with a card remover for these)
• The cost for mini-boss and MVP should be much higher
  

I like the idea of it not being 100% chance with a chance to loose the card. I was reminded of Critical success/failures in D&D. Where 5% of the time, you have great success and 5% of the time, horrible failures. Thought we could maybe do something like:

For normal cards at 150k per try (50/50):
5% loose both card and gear
45% only loose your money, gear stays carded
45% get back your card
5% get back both

For Mini-boss cards at 50 Mil per try (25% success):
5% loose both card and gear
70% only loose your money, gear stays carded
20% get back your card
5% get back both

For Boss cards at 75 Mil per try (10% success):
5% loose both card and gear
85% only loose your money, gear stays carded
5% get back your card
5% get back both

For equipment
I would recommend 5 price points (one for each weapon level (1-4) and one for equipment). The price could be 50x upgrade cost for that gear times its current refine. That would look like:

• Level 1 weapon: 10 k X refine per try (100k @ +10)
• Level 2 weapon: 50 k X refine per try (500k @ +10)
• Level 3 weapon: 250 k X refine per try (2.5 Mil @ +10)
• Level 4 weapon: 1 Mil X refine per try ( 7 Mil @ +7)
• Equipment: 500 k X refine per try (3.5 Mil @ +7)
  

With a success rate looking something like this (maybe):
5% loose both gear and cards
5% get back gear and any Normal cards (mini boss and MVP cards are auto lost)
((10 - safe refine) x current refine + 25)% only loose your money, gear stays carded
Remaining % get back your gear back

(ie:
Level 1 weapon:
@ +0 = 70% success,
@ safe = 49% success,
@ + 10 = 40% success,
Level 4 weapon / equipment
@ +0 = 70% success,
@ safe = 46% success,
@ + 7 = 28% success,
@ +10 = 10% success)

Just some idea's!

What do you guys think?

[The Roger]

Aumdura's benefit is nice but there are many better accessories these days.

Its too hardcore if theres chance of losing the mvp card. Just make it costly so one is forced to farm to make zeny.

OR introduce the possibility of card removal through usage of GM-Services, like three voucers to do it.

[sheam]

I don't know much to give an opinion in terms of balancing for this, but if you do decide to implement something like this...

-Please- Consider making a misc item that drops from instanced MVP's as part of the ingredients for removing a card. (in some way shape or form) That would greatly help bring together players for pvm content. This will provide more incentive for public teamplay for stuff like thanatos/surtur/nydd/mystic tower/orcus etc.

[The Roger]

(01-01-2017 03:49 PM)sheam Wrote:  Consider making a misc item that drops from instanced MVP's as part of the ingredients for removing a card. (in some way shape or form) That would greatly help bring together players for pvm content. This will provide more incentive for public teamplay for stuff like thanatos/surtur/nydd/mystic tower/orcus etc.

Thats a nice idea

[Viridithon]

I like the idea of separating the card and gear and getting back none, one, or both by chance. It honors how much hard work you've put into obtaining a card or gear by letting you possibly retrieve one or both while still having a chance of failure and thus requiring more farming since it is definitely a custom feature not meant to be in the game. It feels like a sort of compromise between overpowered quality of life and unfortunate (almost) necessity due to low population and stagnant economy.

[Spire]

What about having the removal be part of the Fairy Auction? Then the GMs don't have to worry about balancing prices. The player base will set the price via bidding. Also, it would prevent abuse.

From what I've noticed as far as the economy goes.. It's difficult for newer players to cut into it. Sure we've got hatter cards to provide a boost for people starting out, but the 300k pales in comparison to the prices of any 'good' gear. (~50m+ For most BiS or close to BiS gear). Which would require over 100 poring cards to even come close to buying something that expensive.

Arguably, newer players can get a cut in by hunting cards the rest of us don't want to IE: Zerom.

But if you add the card remover npc, you also remove (some of) the need for cards such as this. Which in turn hurts the economy.

I'm not for having it done via NPC, however the fairy auction would be a decent alternative.