The Economy And You

[Elizabeth]

I've been around for a while, enough to see and understand things on my own. One thing I don't understand is why some people complain about others and wish for change, but continue to support that which harms them.

To be more specific, Roger.

Often avoiding the hustle and bustle of the big towns, I didn't really interact with others until recently. Eventually one of the topics we talked about was Roger. His shops occupy a significant percentage of Prontera, after all.

To the outsider he seems like your average rich player. He is occasionally helpful when others have questions regarding gear or cards, and the wares of his shops are generally competitively priced.

But beneath the surface there seems to lie something else. A very different story. Suspiciously acquired gears, manipulative marketing, dishonest business practices, sabotage, hostile takeovers, and to top it all off, rare, explosive temperament.

Yet Roger's businesses continue to thrive. Why?

It appears those that complain or whine the hardest, do just that. Complain and whine. A little whine here, a little complaint there. But they still support his shops. His wares are generally the cheapest around, of course. And so, a vicious cycle emerges.

Roger allegedly uses dishonest methods to acquire zeny or even buy out entire auctions, angering some in the process. He lowballs prices, harming other merchants but not himself. Still, people buy. He steals big kills, angering even more, but now he has rare merchandise to fill his shops with. People buy, because it's better than risking wasting time getting big kills aggressively being taken over by him.

But I ask you, why conform to a cycle of abuse and dependence? Does he not use the money he takes from you to batter you? Do you wish things could be different?

Why not do something about it?

If you want change, pitch in to make it happen. Support other shops, even if they're slightly more expensive. You who can fight, time your big battles, give him less chances of having free kills down the road. Spread the word! Spread resistance to unfair competition!

We can all bring about change for the better, but we have to do it together.

[JFKH]

Ok I'll bite

TLDR:

Roger is the only person who has stuff I want to buy.

***

I've been on/off hero since near the beginning and its obviously not the same since back then. (very low population now)

I buy from Roger because, (lets be real here) he is the only player who actually sells stuff I want. Literally no other players at the time I was buying diablos robes were selling them so I literally was buying out his shops whenever he restocked.

I am a casual solo player now so I can't really farm diablos robes on my own, however I know how to make raw Zeny so I don't mind buying from Roger.

As for buying from other players... I don't know I can't control what they want to put up in their shops, mostly stuff I don't want, stuff I know is overpriced and again lets be real here useless in most cases. (80% of hatter hats)

***Side suggestion if it wasn't already suggested literally make all hatter hats costume craftable. I would actually like to wear some of those hats as costumes***

If Roger doesn't have something I want I try main, usually crickets then I use the hunting board, which has been very good.

Thanks Sephiroth literally filled my last couple requests.

As for Roger's tactics, no opinion really... As long as he is following the server rules its fine. On high population servers KSing MVPs is very common I think I saw on main one time they were saying like "just kill it faster" or something, I mean they aren't wrong. His business practices? Hmm I honestly can't tell would need an example. The only thing I could think of would be ice picks and there was only one other person selling one cheaper than him. Is that too low? I don't think it sold yet. That would be the only major monopoly type thing I see. How does he do it? I just assume he has help from 1 or 2 people to MVP in bio3.

After coming back here from a long break I tried asking main how much for a Quah-Nomag Gloves? This was new to me and I got some replies compared to Roger, asked for a deal either no deals or like 1m off or something and I said no thanks and just bought from Roger. I asked main how much for an Orcus Bracer? Again got some replies compared to Roger but this time actually got a deal so I bought from that player. I gave them the chance for a sale, I don't have patience to haggle. On a low population server that is also very old, its really hard to sell ANYTHING and this is an accessory, its not something you need lots of to upgrade, I am sure people are just sitting on lots of them.

How to beat Roger? To be honest I don't think you can unless he quits. He has been here a very long time and plays a lot (like his name says). But if Roger were to quit that is A LOT of stuff gone. However, could anyone else actually take his place if he were to quit?

[Mister Midnight]

Mostly the same for me as with JFKH. He's got a lot of things that I need sometimes. He offers me discounts on bulk purchases. Him owning a lot of real estate in prontera doesn't really both me, as anyone can do it. I've only been on the server for 2 years but I've played enough to know that often times veterans to servers can get high end gears from players who quit. I can't really comment on any "suspicious" gear of his. But, whenever I've asked for help getting gear that I want, all he required of me was to make a char to contribute to an MVP party. When bargaining prices anyone can low-highball. It's always a buyers responsibility to get as accurate of a price as they can. Sucks, but that's the way I've always seen it. As for MVPs, ROs official rules have always been free for all.

[The Legendary Joe]

(06-03-2020 01:00 PM)Elizabeth Wrote:  

But beneath the surface there seems to lie something else. A very different story. Suspiciously acquired gears, manipulative marketing, dishonest business practices, sabotage, hostile takeovers, and to top it all off, rare, explosive temperament.

Roger allegedly uses dishonest methods to acquire zeny or even buy out entire auctions, angering some in the process. He lowballs prices, harming other merchants but not himself. Still, people buy. He steals big kills, angering even more, but now he has rare merchandise to fill his shops with. People buy, because it's better than risking wasting time getting big kills aggressively being taken over by him.

Please inform us more of these dishonest methods? Last I knew having more money you're willing to spend was how auctions were won.

Give examples on some of the products and prices he's lowballed on.

Only one person in recent memory attempts to buy low and sell high in the extremes and he tends to stand out more, but he's fairly new. I do think the way the community spikes the prices when he attempts to lowball/haggle is kinda toxic, but I don't know.

Most of the mvp parties I've been involved in with roger have either no competition, or the other team wasn't around for the mvp spawns. People can't claim mobs if they aren't present. The one time we did have to compete for damage, Hellstorm beat roger vrs ifrit.

If people want to compete, we need more people doing high end things, farming the small mvps with OCA's ad nauseum. We want competitive economies, we need more no-lifers doing nothing but RO all day every day. Smaller markets cannot prosper without the stuff to sell.

[Syl]

Difficult to comprehend if you are complaining Roger plays too much RO or his prices are too low.

Economy is based on demand and supply. Low prices are welcomed by most. The majority of the population have no interest in grinding zeny 24/7.

Quote:Roger allegedly uses dishonest methods to acquire zeny or even buy out entire auctions, angering some in the process.

I turn up to pretty much every FA hoping to pick up missed v4p hats, I've not seen Roger in any of them for over a year except the anniversary one.

Quote:Suspiciously acquired gears, manipulative marketing, dishonest business practices, sabotage, hostile takeovers, and to top it all off, rare, explosive temperament

Generally curious what the basis of your claim is. His puns are terrible, yes, but perhaps you could provide concrete evidence to support the rest of your statement?

[The Roger]

Wow, okay:

First of all, Hi, i dont think i know you but it seems you know me very well, very very very well, even if you have been around only since... uhm, some time; as i said, i dont know you so i... dont know. :o

Second of all, thank you. I am serious, really; not many would spend time and effort writing about me so when that happens i feel honoured. Written words cannot pass down this feeling well, it may appear sarcastic but please believe me, i am not.
Ok some time i joke and troll a bit but i'll try not to in this post and withing my answers, as i simply want to explain couple things that are not clear, mostly because its been said you're around here since not too much time.

Ah the to all the guys and ladies who alread wrote their personal comments here before me, i skipped reading you to not be influenced so i can write my post in its most natural and unaltered form possible. I will read all of you after finishing here, dont worry!

Now, to give some form of order to my answers, im going to quote your entire text and make bold and add a bracketed number [#] to the parts im going to answer to, so then after your quote i can list them by those numbers and people can easily track them back to the precise points. Here we go!

(06-03-2020 01:00 PM)Elizabeth Wrote:  

I've been around for a while[1], enough to see and understand things on my own. One thing I don't understand is why some people complain about others and wish for change, but continue to support that which harms them[2].

To be more specific, Roger.

Often avoiding the hustle and bustle of the big towns, I didn't really interact with others until recently. Eventually one of the topics we talked about was Roger. His shops occupy a significant percentage of Prontera[3], after all.

To the outsider he seems like your average rich player[4]. He is occasionally helpful[5] when others have questions regarding gear or cards, and the wares of his shops are generally competitively priced[6].

But beneath the surface there seems to lie something else. A very different story. Suspiciously acquired gears[7], manipulative marketing[8], dishonest business practices[9], sabotage[10], hostile takeovers[11], and to top it all off, rare, explosive temperament[12].

Yet Roger's businesses continue to thrive. Why?[13]

It appears those that complain or whine the hardest, do just that. Complain and whine. A little whine here, a little complaint there. But they still support his shops[14]. His wares are generally the cheapest around, of course[15]. And so, a vicious cycle emerges[16].

Roger allegedly uses dishonest methods to acquire zeny[17a] or even buy out entire auctions, angering some in the process[17b]. He lowballs prices, harming other merchants but not himself[18]. Still, people buy[19]. He steals big kills[20a], angering even more[20b], but now he has rare merchandise to fill his shops with[21]. People buy, because it's better than risking wasting time getting big kills aggressively being taken over by him[22].

But I ask you, why conform to a cycle of abuse and dependence?[23] Does he not use the money he takes from you to batter you?[24] Do you wish things could be different?

Why not do something about it?

If you want change, pitch in to make it happen. Support other shops, even if they're slightly more expensive. You who can fight, time your big battles, give him less chances of having free kills down the road[25]. Spread the word! Spread resistance to unfair competition[26]!

We can all bring about change for the better, but we have to do it together.

Answers:
1) I play here since august 2008, you? Said "been around for a while", how much is this "a while"? I think thats not enough time to know some stuff.

2) "but continue to support that which harms them"; thats your vision of it. If those people do that its because they want to do that. I dont think you can speak for all of them.

3) I'll be more than glad and happy if Vending skill wasnt locked to 12 unique items. It would spare me a huge amount of hassle moving items. Speak to Gravity's employees to have created that skill that way. Plus, theres no upper limit to how many shops can be in prontera or a person can set open, as long as they respect the rules of positioning them far from warps and npcs outside roads.

4) Uhm, yeah i am, i guess.

5) Yeah okay so im not THAT helpful i mean, i think you're too kind with that "Occasionally"; there are other players way more helpful than me, i just mainly focus at playing the game by myself or with my guildmates and friends.

6) yes i try to be competitive but also try to keep and mantain the Value of things, as much as me alone can do. But at the end i have to follow the market trends as anybody. Ah often i forget some prices in between shops resets, so sometimes some of them are higher or lower...

7) Its 4 years some people started attacking me with that subject. The tl;dr sum is: people quitted, i was still there and among all who could receive some cool gifts i was deemed the most reliable and responsible person to inherit that legacy. The other, the call it like: "best candidate", was a person (GL of a guild) who was already been charged multiple times with account bans so the guy with the stuff okay he was quitting, but he would have had his heart broken to hear all that juice went to waste because that other "candidate" managed to get another account ban full of gears. Because of this, butts were hurted, salt arose inside bloodvessels of some, and some people started attacking me spreading any genre of obsenity and accuses. End of the story. Anybody else who thinks to know anything about, or listens to words spread around is a fool.

8) What is "manipulative marketing"? Explain pls.

9) Again, do you mind to explain?

10) Again#2, explain because, i really cannot figure out how i could sabotage in this game. If it was Ultima Online, oohhh boi, those were fun years man, i tell ya.

11) Again#3!, explain, bring examples, bring real facts, bring somethinggggg

12) Oooooh, incredible! Roger is a human! And because of that, he is subject to emotions! Wow... we all thought Roger was a steel column of the Universe... Instead he is made of bones and flesh like all of us...
Okay okay, seriously, i said at the beginning i wouldnt throw in irony or jokes, but man, your sentence broke out a laugh from me; "rare, explosive temperament", "RARE"
I dont think you can come tell us you are an omniscent, perfectly-mannered being. Really, you never got angry at something in your entire life? If you're so strong, i admire you. Else, you might suffer of apathy or disinterest in things, and its not good.
But man, "rare"... Lmao. (sorry if this answer felt sarcastic, pls dont ask to see my manager pls)

13) Person A produces thing X, person B has money and needs thing X, person B buys X from A, as B cant produce easily or quickly the product X. Its pretty easy to understand.

14) Do you support any real life shop? Like, buying bread or fruits at the local market? Answer is already in 13), as long as a person needs a product it cant produce itself or fast enough but can raise money, it will buy the product with money. You do it too everyday in real life, as every human on this wonderful planet.

15) Again, yes i try to have competitive prices. I also think your "of course" its a bit out of place.

16) Oh my RNGod! A vycious cycle! Eww, go away, filthy cycles of NORMAL REAL ENVIROMENT OF PEOPLE BUYING AND SELLING STUFF TO EACH OTHER ops my caps lock slipped, sowwyyyyy! Well, here it goes my rare chance of explosive temperament. I guess i spent it here, damn i doesnt have any more to use for this post!
Okay real answer: what seems vycious to you its the natural cycle of economy everywhere.

17a) Dude, i farm monsters. Monsters drop items. NPC buy items for Zeny. Ta-daaan! I acquired zeny! Also, you have seen yourself my mall in prontera, that raises quite good coin. Where do you see dishonestness?

17b) Duuude: you are confusing Auctions with Give-Aways. In auctions one thing only rules: cash. The more zeny you have and the more willing to spend them are you, more auctions you gonna win.

18) Ooooh man, this is hilarious: "Roger, you scum! Your prices are too high!" -Roger lowers the prices- "Roger, you scum! Your prices are too low!"
What the f***, lol. Hilarious.

19) Still, you go out every couple days to buy food at your local market, why? Why havent you evolved yet into a godly eternal being which doesnt need anymore mere things like food to sustain your body? Why are you still buying stuff? Tell me please. Because, AGAIN, referr to Answer 13).

20a) Every mvp not quest summoned are FFA, free for all, as long as one side doesnt play to actively on purpose disregard the ability to damage the mvp of the other party.

20b) Thats your problem, not mine.

21) Whaaaat?! I didnt know its was illegal to display items with Merchants. Hilarious-part-A'thousand. I can play highend sometimes alone.

22) How, how can i answer to this sentence without sounding like a prick; exactly, theres no way aside saying if you quit competing, you're a wimp. Do you know ho much and for how long i camped certain mvps? Are you aware i camped gloom for nearly two straight years EVERY RESPAWN with heavy competition? Did i got angry and quit? My gloom card in my lv 6 ToH wings is the answer. Also often the things people want to farm from mvps are being sold by me for fucking cheap, and it takes way less time for them to raise couple mils instead of waiting 1-2 hours to just have a chance of killing it and then have another chance of dropping the item. You guys doesnt really grasp how cheap the marketed items are today, the vast majority of them. You guys doesnt understand how easy and fast is to raise a dozen mils of zeny. I suspect many are lazy, while others just really have little time to play.

23) Tell me, why are you and your life dependant by others, and their products? Why are you still not 100% independant on every aspect of your existence? If tomorrow water wont come to your house's pipes anymore, do you have a spring well in your yard to supply it? And if you do have a well, man: FLASH NEWS! You will be DEPENDANT by your well!! IN-CRE-DI-BLE! Dude, everybody is dependant by somebody else or something else.

24) I dont. I buy stuff from time to time, and the cash you give to me return to you guys. How 50K blue herbs bought in couple weeks sound to you? Just a practical real example.

25) I have free things only because other people, maybe like you, quit the competition. oh! oh! like WoE!

26) Whats unfair? Me waking up at 3:30 AM to compete for Gloom? Do the same, boi. Im not holding you back for sure.

-----------------------------------------------

Phew, what a ride! Im not the best answerer for sure, but i tried to do my best.

I wanna point one thing out: i am off the server since friday 22 May; my PC needs a mobo change, and my old lappy is too slow and cooked to not make me angry playing RO.
Sooooo, you have more than 2 weeks without me camping anything on the server, why are you whining that im sTeAliNg eVeRy mVp aLiVe!!1!!2!!!one!! ? Get out on the field and start your adventure, boi!

Now, i'll read the other posts <3

[The Roger]

Sorry for the doublepost; there are some typing errors but i wont fix them as i dont want to mark the post as "edited".

<3

[The Roger]

(06-04-2020 10:08 AM)Syl Wrote:  His puns are terrible, yes

H-HEY!

[Kiwis]

Reiterating again what most people are saying, he's the only one that sells what everyone needs... BUT more so, readily available because of all his 765369 vendors.

It's not fair to say that his business practices are "dishonest", because he's just doing what every 'business' attempts to do, compete with prices. And, at least he's not scamming people with soft feathers.

Further points,
Roger is one of the most active players, and actually puts a lot of work into obtaining his wares, making all those vendors, and gearing himself to be competitive enough against larger mvp groups.


Whether you think his MVP KSing is wrong or not, is another topic, of morals and etiquette. And, everyone knows he's bought gears with IRL money. But, none of these points relate to how his business is 'dishonest'.

[Bonesy]

if this is the worst "problem" heRO has

i don't want to play anywhere else lmao