god items discussion

[exwing]

I'd just like to Point one quick thing out about the Weight thing, you may be abile to take 200 cond white pots into woe or whatever and you say you can restock, but what about the person thats in a pre-cast that cant leave there station for any reason, then if anyone that did die, need to take supplys only for themselfs and cant give pots/supplys to the other person for this and that reason to last through war.

You made a Point of Attacking but Neglected the View of the Defender, poeple who are stuck baby sitting a spot.

[Ryxingeir]

having actually fought a blacksmith using two megingjards and a mjolnir (among other weapons) with 99 in all stats and quite possibly unlimited z - while it was certainly a pain in the butt and an inconvenience to fight, it wasn't the end of the world that people seem to be trying to make it

[Kiaro]

Ryxingeir Wrote:having actually fought a blacksmith using two megingjards and a mjolnir (among other weapons) with 99 in all stats and quite possibly unlimited z - while it was certainly a pain in the butt and an inconvenience to fight, it wasn't the end of the world that people seem to be trying to make it

What server? What was their build? no offence but they sound awful unless you had a build that could somehow withstand 11~k dps or more.

Ex: defence is even easier, merchants and carts and in guild kafras (that you can use while cloaked) exist. Only people that can't leave a precast, period, are wizards and clowns and trappers - their use of megs are admittedly dubious =p

Teox: GTB is probably the closest to god item in hax, but it does mean +30% physical damage, y'know? Meanwhile megs don't leave you vulnerable except in long long term survivability (mitigated by server small battles).

Quote:with your rebuttals its basically coming down to opinion on the balance issue.

And that's what needs to be discussed. This isn't flagrant opinion only, we can look at the reality of what'd happen with god items here, because we know so much about what'd happen once one came onto the server. We can predict more or less exactly what'd happen, we know woe, numbers, etc.

So lets' talk about what you've brought up:

Regarding admin rings, you've missed my point. They are clearly broken, that was given. Meanwhile, we don't think skeleton rings are broken - they do nothing. We also don't think ring [1] is broken. Nor vesper core for str, etc etc. Somewhere between ring [1] and admin ring is a point where balance is mutilated. What about a +200 str accessory? +100? +90? The only way to really work it out is to look at the numbers the megs bring out. So you've entirely misunderstood me here.

You also missed my point about each guild getting a god item, I'll expand later.

Regarding server growth, I think that's very important, and it ties nicely to the few things I think are most important to think about. But before I touch on that, even though it might be less true that one person wins fights now, it is still very true. The server scarcely has enough people for most guilds to fill every role every woe. There's so much not being done, it's like seeing half a woe, if that. Battles are still very much won or loss on the merits of a select few, I'd give examples but we've both seen it both hand lots of time even in the last few woes.

So, the points I'm worried about regarding god items:

First of all, how do you feel about the fact that every guild is going to get a god item anyway, and that time is the only variable? That is to say, there is very very little competition. At least 3 guilds on the server look very very likely to just tick tock with the clock and eventually be granted god items. Partly because you can get all the components from one castle, partly because of low population. This means it's not really an accomplishment at all -- not a hard one. It means your guild showed up for woe for X months. Then there's no competition to make the items either - you just hand them in. It's a joke of a task to make god items here, with your time spent playing being the primary variable in deciding when your guild gets a god item. This fundamentally ruins the idea that god items keep the server competitive. I have nothing to be competitive about - why do I need to work hard to beat anyone, to strategise about this and that, just plodding along as the server has been for months and the guilds that've been holding (LW, behe, bamboo, then DD/CDZ on and off in payon) will just accumulate god pieces. What a yawn! Hardly an incentive to keep people trying /hard/ in woe.

Second of all, how do you feel about this granting an advantage that new players can only match by playing in WoE? If some guilds do end up with god items, these new players have to do what we did to get god items, except they have to do it against guilds with god items. This is the only disadvantage where this is the case, and it's a significant one. Gear, levels, all that can be made up for in pvm - but not this. You mentioned that as the server grows it wont be a problem. Would you concede it IS a problem right now?

I'd be all for turning off God item drops until a sufficient number of guilds appeared and hero grew enough to support them. Imagine if we had 1000 players and alliances all busting through 3 castles! My goodness, that'd be very competitive, and god items would be super diluted amongst the population. It'd be hard to say no to the idea at that point! I'm not suggesting anything 'forever', but I'd say that god items are at least currently not appropriate.

Ultimately:

How can you support giving people god items on a small server where they'd have such a significant impact when, due to guild:castle ratio, every decent guild is guaranteed a god item for no work besides occupying the castle they're guaranteed each woe, with commerce determining the rate at which god items appear? I find that question really troubling.

Like pretty much all problems on a low population server, I think the answer to it is 'We need 1000 more players'

[GM-Ayu]

The double megingjard mentioning is in the Aldebaran Castle Defense within heRO when the castle opens, GM team had 99 all stats with full god items and mvp cards. However, GM team was also spread out to "1 GM per screen" type of defense except for Priest and Blacksmith on the emperium. Although GM team had access to those items, they were also using non-trans job to fit with the Aldebaran castle restriction.

[Former-GM-Belial]

One of the reasons thus far for the quest being disabled is the weapons rewarded near the end of the quest which you only need to be level 70 to take place in.??It has been discussed and we have generally felt like it may flood the server with weapons (though we are aware of the number of players who must complete each phase of the quest before the next opens and how that may mitigate the flooding).

On to your point about the quests not being implemented.??It may be that we just hand them to the players (something that has been discussed in the GM section, and is still being considered somewhat), but if you say there are not enough people to effectively nullify someone with a god item, I'd like to suggest that the server is not large enough to ensure that there are people online when the last seal is opened to stop the guild(s) trying to make the god item by force.??This does not in any way negate your point, of course, just trying to point out anythying I haven't seen mentioned yet (sorry if I've missed anything in the previous posts).??

I, personally, would be all for scaling god items' power to better fit heRO, and then possibly changing the quest around a bit to make it easier in proportion as well (lowering power of god items a bit, giving out something other than ice picks+other level 4 weapons, and lowering number of players needed and items required).??I really doubt this plan would garner huge support from the community, though.??

I agree that adding 1000 more players would greatly help the issue in general.?? Barring that, however, what else is there???We need a solution that is actually viable for heRO - if one needs to be implemented.??Rest assured that, while we don't implement every idea, the GM team is concerned with balancing things like this.??

I do not speak for the team, instead speaking for myself now, when I say that I personally think that god items can ruin a server this small.??And, as such, I would not lie to you when I say that I am very interested in this discussion to see what the community has to say - though I cannot promise that anything concrete will happen or, if it does, when it will come to be.

EDIT: In response to Ayu - thanks for sharing that example. I too was wondering how anyone could see a double-meg smith would not be a problem. A blacksmith being obviously far inferior too whitesmith with those equips... since their big damage skill can not also stun like Cart Term can. Double meg max str cart term is very frightening.

[Avalon_Fates]

why dont we just add the quests and just raise the level needed to 99?

[GM-Ayu]

We will *NOT* add the God Item Quest as it is identical from original server. Besides the mentioned easy giveaway of 50 lv 4 weapons, most noticably ice picks, we also used most of the maps for custom quests (this being the primary reason why we can't just add the original God Item Quest "as is.")

///

I guess that if Belial posted as a player, I'll also post as well from my own player standpoint instead of a GM, I guess...

No matter what happens, I am against "scaling" the god items to lesser value in the name of "fitting the server's needs" better.

Either we have them, or we don't have them, or we have a customized methods to obtain them with the stats that they are right now. Just PLEASE reconsider, Pandora, if you will modify God Item stats and I strongly advise against it.

Once one official item gave in to be adjusted to the "server's needs" (when was the last time people agreed to server's needs?), it starts a first example and a chain of response to start modifying other "questionable items" that are powerful. Most noticably, it's almost always GTB MvP card that's the first to be under attack by this type of thing in many other servers.

Many other servers gave in and have a Mjolnir that only gives +10 dex for example, and then the next thing is the GTB card went from spell immunity to "MDef + 90." And then more problems start as server splits to support the new change and those that want the old card effect back because it's ripping them off after working so hard to camp a MvP to get the card.

Adjusting the stats of one official item, and every other official item becomes endangered to be changed. If Sight and Ruwach's 1 cell difference got a thread that lasted beyond 1 year and 1000 posts combined, how furious are people going to be in debating about how to "properly modify" God items to heRO's needs?


If they are considered balance, keep status quo.

If they are considered broken beyond tolerance, take them out entirely and trade god item ingredient for other equipments/cards/whatever.

If they are strong but only acceptable if low in number, make a hard quest for them.

Just don't modify the god items...

[GM-Pandora]

I'd like to clarify something. To Kiaro first, when you asked to talk about god item and their impact on the server, we were talking about woe amongst players. That crossed a boundary, it's not that god item are taboo, it's that you were no longer talking to Huntress, it was no longer the same dynamic of conversation and so I brought the discussion back on topic.

Next up, keep the discussion clean, so far so good, I'm proud of you all, keep it up guys. Special kudos to Krimlin's post whom I was happily surprised about xD

We've been having an ongoing discussion in the GM section about god item already for some time, it's a sign that you're not the only one concerned. Bummer is that no matter which angle we look at it, there will be dissatisfied people. There is no perfect solution.

Now to go back in history. I honestly don't remember who set this policy, might have been me, or perhaps Ben. I'm pretty sure however that either way the person who set it did not ever expect a guild to make all the components, this was almost 3 years ago.

God item quest were disabled in the first SVN of the server, as I was not much involved in the tech part at that time I can't say if it was disabled by default or by the GM team. I seem to recall hearing the quest were glitchy, but it was so long ago I don't clearly remember. In future SVN we kept them disabled both for convenience and continuity, convenient because we use the maps of those quests for other stuff, such as ToH and Allegiance point npc. By keeping them removed we also kept control on the god item. Should a guild make one and get a bug while talking to the npc it would become a nightmare quite fast on whats true or not.

Now, in regards to possible solution we are discussing amongst gm, there are many. But none that involve trashing people's hard work, if we decide to remove god item, we'll make sure to give an alternative for something to do with their ingredients. And if we would decide to nerf them, the list would get nerfed as well. Also, if we decide to add the quest back, we've already agreed that the part where you get a level 4 weapon (ice pick) will be changed or toned down.

As for changing god items stats, which I'm not saying we will, but since you mentioned it I think it's worth talking about. There are differences with GTB or any other equipment. First of it's god item, it's not a card or any other regular equip that drop from monster, they are "special", but mostly it's different because there are already people with GTB, however there aren't any god item yet. So on that topic, *if* we make any change to god item, I don't feel the slightest obligation to modify any other existing equipment. Specially putting into consideration that we got the random castle drop, which means the way to obtain them differs too.

All in all, I juggled with a few ideas which I'll pitch to the other gm, if they find it worthy of discussing here I'll post them.

[Kadar]

There are a few things which I feel need to be cleared up in this thread.

First is that God item quests make a difference. They don't. There are a multitude of servers which have the valk god item NPC in pront. You bring the materials and the npc gives you the item. Do god items flow like water on those servers? Hell no. The quest to make a god item is a lot easier compared to actually obtaining the items. If a guildmaster has spent YEARS building up a guild and has been lucky enough to rise to the top. A quest will NOT stop them from that long sought after prize.

Second is that God items are only a matter of time. I would not put it so lightly. This game is about EFFORT. Let's say you had a castle and didn't put any effort into playing. Are you going to be on every time a castle box spawns? Probably not. Are you going to be on to inspire your guildmates during WoE? Recall? Probably not. Are you going to keep that castle without effort? Hell no. Can't really make a god item without a castle can you? Not only that but you can't make a god item without keeping that castle for months and months and months. Eco costs loads of money too. You also have to be lucky enough to get god items which are used to make the item you want. On top of ALL that you can't let your guild die to drama, you can't let your SERVER die to drama, and now it seems you gotta keep people from nerfing those items you worked so hard to get (and you gotta keep drama out of that one too). That's A LOT of effort if you ask me. Don't kid yourself and say that any random noob can make a god item if he puts enough 'time' into it or that 'its only a matter of time [before we are overrun by god items]'. It's not word for word what you said but it's how you've come across. Making it sound easy is an insult to every player who has ever made a god item.

Third is that God items are unbalanced. I've already established that god items take a lot of effort to make. This effort effectively throttles the amount of god items that will ever appear on the server. You say that even one person can make the difference during WoE on heRO. Yet you still mention times where it was a group effort. Machi breaking a precast? A pointless act on it's own but with an attacking force to back him up then it's trouble. But it's easily countered if the people on the defending side are organized and properly geared. Even with sleip and double meg a SinX is still just a single SinX. He will do a great job of killing people one on one but he's not going to survive a good precast without a team to back him up. We already see sufficient precasts on heRO so I KNOW god items aren't going to make an insurmountable difference in WoE. One person might contribute significantly to a group either failing or succeeding but alone they don't turn the tide of WoE.

If anything was unclear just ask.

[teOx]

one good way to determine "what would happen on heRO" if any 1 guild got a god item is to first let it happen, then decide if balance is necessary .

i still completely disagree with your "its easy to make a god item, it just takes time" point. Don't get me wrong, it makes perfect sense. On paper, that is what would happen eventually. But i bet after another year after this post is made, there will still be zero, maybe one, god items on hero. after 4 years? point being, will god items become rampant? will every woeing guild eventually get one? no. average hero guild lifespan doesnt last as long as the time it takes to make 1 god item. that is proven because to this day not a single god item exists . So while I agree that you are right that it SHOULD eventually happen, i disagree with you using the argument in practice. it will never happen.

the fact that it only takes 1 castle to make a god item actually makes it that much harder to get the ones you want.

just because there is always some eco going around, it takes alot of eco to gain items at a decent rate. at the rate payon is going, for example, there will be no god item out of that castle alone even if it continues for 10 years, i bet.

youre the one who completely misunderstood my point about the admin items. i clearly stated my point was that i feel it lies within the balance of viable items that dont ruin gameplay. that remains my point, which should answer your follow up post (yes somewhere along the line between ring and admin items the balance gets pwnt, god items lie on the balanced side of that line).

answer to your final message is once again, to let it happen and decide if it needs balance.

to everyone who spoke of modifying god item stats: i never believe it is right to change the stats of any item. for some obvious and maybe some not so obvious reasons. im no GM, but if it turns out in the long run that god items need fixing, i say get rid of them for an alternative reward to the guild. dont modify them. i dont see any harm in letting one or two god items out into the server to see if it upsets the balance. who knows, it may never happen. after all it has already been 3 years.