god items discussion

[Avalon_Fates]

=_= It isn't even that strong seriously..OH! NOES!!! SOMEONE WITH MEG!!! RUUUUUUUUNS!!!!ITS IMPOSSIBLE TO STOP HIM!!! *Krimlin flees prontera at maximum speed.* *fullstrip* meg dude crys.

[Général_Argos]

Avalon_Fates Wrote:*fullstrip* meg dude crys.

Meg is an accessory thus can't be stripped.

[teOx]

but he cant attack

[Avalon_Fates]

Interesting point, I was thinking of the hammer..heh I need sleep *head droop* Still alternately, Freeze + jup thunder or Acid Demo.

[GM-Ayu]

Avalon_Fates Wrote:OH! NOES!!! SOMEONE WITH MEG!!! RUUUUUUUUNS!!!!ITS IMPOSSIBLE TO STOP HIM!!! *Krimlin flees prontera at maximum speed.* *fullstrip* meg dude crys.

Let's keep this type of posting to a minimum with the sarcasm, full cap "pretend to be noob" talk type of thing before more of this shows up and gets this topic out of control. The topic did very well with well written posts, well constructed arguments along with some calculations or previous experiences with the God items elsewhere. Let's keep that kind of posts up.

Just type up your points directly and move on.

[teOx]

i was about to say that about his first post on page before xD

didnt you get just done apologizing about some outburst on main?

strip would pwn megingjard though so i agree with fates on that at least unless there is a way to pwn with high str but no weapon <_>

[Général_Argos]

teOx Wrote:strip would pwn megingjard though so i agree with fates on that at least unless there is a way to pwn with high str but no weapon <_>

Str but no weapon? GC!! :D

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[Back on topic]

There are many ways to prevent being divested, having high dex, full chemical protection from an alchemist, or carrying a few frost diver scrolls can easily froze stalker's hands. ---------> But thats not the point, the issue is not about being divested. Any weapon can get divested, that weapon being a simple knife or a godly hammer. Divesting is not removing the "suxor" or "pwnzor" value of a weapon. If you can apply divest to any weapon, how is divesting being a specific weakness to a good item?

exemple : trowing a +9999999 atk weapon in the game and justifying the choice saying that "the weapon can be divested anyway" doesnt make it less unbalanced...

[Kiaro]

The amount of strawman in this topic is disgraceful when we got off to such a good start. Thanks teox ex and kadar for not degenerating into impersonating me as a noob. I'd like to point out that from the start, I have been giving reasons based within ingame logic and whatnot. There's a lot to reply to, so I'll try to pick up on only the most salient points where people think they've trumped me.

Shall we?

Quote:If you want more competition, then reduse all castles back just to pront, and possibly alde, then you have your competition. it's still going to take EFFORT.

Despite that you blatantly ignored that I was using a specific definition to how 'effort' and 'competition' in this context, I agree completely. Taking out all the current castles and opening just one castle (perhaps a WoE SE one to experiment with? Everyone will HATE WoE SE while they don't know what they're doing, though) would indeed fire up competition. That'd be great, this is exactly what I'm talking about. Imagine if everyone was fighting over one castle how incredibly busy every single woe would be. If someone managed to make a god item against the tide of THAT, well, good on them. That solves the competition part.

Doesn't solve the god item: player ratio at all, but it takes care of the god items being time release. I hope you didn't seriously mean 'keep prontera' is in 'everyone but LW should lose their castle', but yes, something like everyone being pushed into one new castle is quite a good idea.

Quote:out of the 2 choices that you mentioned, i believe god items are fair in the low rate they come into the server. this makes sense for an MMO right? isnt that the entire point of ragnarok? GTB card is hax, good thing they have historically come once a year. low rate = strong item. you have played ro before right? that is why the dilution justifies it. killing gtb 20 times a day makes it a tick tock situation before you get the card, but i wont be complaining about that.

read:
1. it is not a time released function
2. yes it is fair for an item that is ridiculously low in drop rate to eventually make its way onto the server.

Sorry, I disagree as to low rate = hax. First of all, you have described mvp card farming as time release. It is somewhat like that on this server, but the point is mvps are meant to be hotly contested. I know it can be hard getting ulle's caps and when I tried to mvp actively I struggled to find garm and GTB quite often - mvps are not handed to you on a plate. Furthermore, GTB and megs are in different leagues. This could stretch a whole other topic, but the fact that GTB takes a shield slot means that it will never be scary since the target will drop to a few well placed attacks. taking an extra 30% damage from demis is what balances GTB - if you are ever not wearing thara in woe you are going DOWN. Yes, there is shield swapping, and it's very useful to breakprecasts, but there are counters to both readily available to those that try. Megs, on the other hand, force you to deal with a character who is the same as always (the weight to a 99 str sinx/whitesmith should not matter) but suddenly makes a cazyload more damage. There's no sudden weakness, no exploitable loophole, nothing to discourage the use. If you had access to GTB, would it be worn all the time? 'course not. It's really really good, but it has SIGNIFICANT weaknesses.

Now, to teox and kadars point that god items aren't on time release, I'd like to point out you both admitted they were. Just that it takes a long time. I'm saying it's wrong in principle to allow powerful items that are inevitable. From a game design stance that's insane. I acknowledge it would take a bloody well long time! But that's not justification.

Avalon has clearly not read the thread and is so limited in his understanding of RO that he must resort to strawmen. His opinion is not worth glancing at for even a moment, and you can safely stop reading here:

Quote:Guess what, Ifrit card can give you + 70hit crit and attack and can cast earthquake!!

As he has clearly never touched an earthquake damage simulator. His post is worthless to the thread and is a huge strawman aimed at the idea that time = hax, ignoring my points about creating more competition (insinuating I desired no competition) and about balancing gear to be appropriate to the server. I hope that, in reflection, he is ashamed to have added nothing to the topic, while teox and ex and kadar have tried patiently to explain their views to me, and vice versa.

Now, I have been thinking about this a LOT guys. I do agree with you on a lot of points. Obviously the counter to god items is to kill the god item guy - but it's not always that simple right? It's like, if you want to take a castle you 'just' have to break the emp. Wanna make money? Buy low sell high! It's not always so easy at it sounds.

So, I've been sitting up for hours looking at god item builds. I've noticed some things:

Sleipnir no longer scares me. Wool/tidals and variant shoes have power creeped up to it. I think a Sleipnir is very VERY good, but is it fair for the god pieces it consumes? Certainly.

Okay, Mjolnir. Is it still a crazy scary whitesmith powerhouse making machine? Yes. Is it THAT much better than a decently refined hurricane fury? Well, no, not THAT much better. It's better for sure, and I'd rather use it, but for god item components? It seems pretty fair. It's +3.1% success on brewing compared to the next best, which to those with a GOOD grasp of the brewing system is pretty hax. But for god materials? Okay, again, it's not gonna wreck the server.

Brigs, the hax accessory? Okay, it's really good. But it doesn't give huge favour to any one stat and it doesn't give dex, so for the effort... I'm still kinda a little on the fence. You can pull off some really impressively top tier builds with it, BUT it still loses to orlean's glove on any char that wants dex, for example. I'd even be willing to say brigs in okay.

Megs? No. What? No. Please no. Please? RO works off exponentials, and +80 str on a proper melee class is terrifying. To say it just works with melee classes, so no biggie, is like saying a +40 int accessory only works with casters and biochems, so no biggie. It's still terrifying due to the huge amount of exponentials used.

So I had a proposal for you guys, would you go simulate builds with double megs and feel the terror of how much ridiculously stronger meg is than every other god item COMBINED, and maybe we can talk about just nerfing megs a little for the server? I mean, if a meg gave +20 str I think I'd maybe be able to sleep at night again. The thing that sparked this was Krumb kept making posts about terrifying megs, but he used a single meg. And I was like 'Well... that's scary but it's NOTHING compared to two megs. Two megs is in a whole other world'. That's when I realised my biggest issue is with double megs.

I mean, I'm shocked you guys haven't already pointed at how extremely meek the god items are in an 11.3 world with our new crazy amazing gear like wool/tidals. But I spent a few hours on the god items, and ran a lot of builds.

So I'd like ex, teox, others to seriously think about this. Given the power level of the OTHER god items, and how megs are blatantly 50 times as good, how about making them +20 str or something? Two megs would still be really /really/ good and you'd feel a big buff in woe, but it'd take so long as for me to find your arguments for beating it realistic.

I've been sceptical, because, well, I've TRIED fighting 210 str sinxs, and it's not even approaching on fair as they mow down waves of people from GT, or as a whitesmith comes and eats half your guild before you down him, etc etc.

So, assuming you guys accept that all the other god items are kinda really fair (Which I assume you do) and that you can see that +40 str accessories are crazy (which I'm not sure you will, but maybe!) I'm just asking how you guys feel about +20 str accessories which are a LOT more in line with the power level of the other god items, and at which point the 800 weight really does become an advantage. 1600 weight for +40 str, you better only be using these if you're REALLY serious about getting those kills. It almost sounds fair, assuming competition creeps up a little.

Thoughts?

[Eldakar]

Kiaro Wrote:Megs? No. What? No. Please no. Please? RO works off exponentials, and +80 str on a proper melee class is terrifying. To say it just works with melee classes, so no biggie, is like saying a +40 int accessory only works with casters and biochems, so no biggie. It's still terrifying due to the huge amount of exponentials used.

So I had a proposal for you guys, would you go simulate builds with double megs and feel the terror of how much ridiculously stronger meg is than every other god item COMBINED, and maybe we can talk about just nerfing megs a little for the server? I mean, if a meg gave +20 str I think I'd maybe be able to sleep at night again. The thing that sparked this was Krumb kept making posts about terrifying megs, but he used a single meg. And I was like 'Well... that's scary but it's NOTHING compared to two megs. Two megs is in a whole other world'. That's when I realised my biggest issue is with double megs.

There's lot of thing that can beat the damage output of 2 megs. +40 str is nothing.

http://pandoraonline.net/forum/showthrea...5#pid30255

(was posted almost 2 year ago, first is 999 999 damage and the other is 760 708 no morph set, it didn't existed back then)

In the end BC is overpowered, remove it.

[GM-Ayu]

Ifrit card gives 7 atk, 7 crit and 7 hit, Fates. Your info is from an old svn that heRO has completely bypassed (the time of Ifrit card giving 70 atk, 70 crit and 70 hit is over before it started for heRO)

Earthquake deals Lv 2 is 1500% damage for 3 hits, but overall damage is divided by all available targets. (reference: arrow vulcan is 1200% for 1 hit, so imagine a stronger AoE neutral Arrow Vulcan on all targets, but it gets weaker if there's more targets)

Fates may have some mistakes in his posts, but Kiaro you don't need to dedicate a whole paragraph to degrade him any further. That section of your post is not exactly healthy for this thread either >_>

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My personal thoughts remain unchanged. I really don't care if they are kept in, or taken out. I worry about possible chain reactions on other existing equipments as a result of what we do to the God items as the first of all examples to follow.