Team PvP Rules Discussion

[Nidsrule]

Given time the same thing would happen with limiting supplies, theres bound to be repetition in matches at some point, regardless of what you do. I really don't see how limiting things is going to provoke that much change in strategy.

Current WRC rules limit AD and edp. Limiting gems on the other hand still makes no sense.

[Général_Argos]

A sb sinx that wants to use an element will have to either use an elemental katar and do less damage than with an infiltrator, or will use an infiltrator and get endowed by the prof.??If the prof on the other team sacrifice gems to dispel the sinx during the begining, the sinx will have to be re-endowed, thus revealing wich element he is using.??

A professor won't be able to keep lp to protect his team for the whole fight duration if the other team use ganbanteim.??He will have to choose *when* to use it.??Same for the Hwiz on the other team.??

And so on, people will have to adopt their strategy in fonction of what the other team is using, at an immensly greater rate than with is the case without limitation to items currently during woe or ro championships.??

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You should read this : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nash_equilibrium

[Nidsrule]

Teams will have to adapt to what the other team is doing either way. Show me a tournament with heavy item restrictions so I can see this in practice, rather than just thinking on paper. It doesn't always work in RO.

I see the restrictions causing people to be a lot more cautious, thus slowing down the rate of play. Kinda like in duels where both players just stand around for two minutes before doing anything, only with more people.

[Général_Argos]

Teams will have to adapt to what the other team is doing either way.

edit for more clarity: If you saw a prof using lp, you know he will use it from the start to the end. If however he has limited number of gems, you know he will have to not use it at a time or another, but you don't know when.

The difference is the unpredictable part increasing, thus increasing the necessety of adaptating strategy.??

"Not thinking on paper"

Sorry, I can't do that.??Me too I never saw such tournements with such heavy items restrictions.??But sometimes you have to try something and experiment.??

"Slowing the rate of play"

I can't refut that, yes it could.??But a chess game involves more strategy than a sprint race.??

[Nidsrule]

But RO is all about speed. Slowing things down certainly doesn't make it more interesting. ;(

I'll agree AD/EDP should be limited (within reason) but gems of all sorts should remain unlimited.

[Général_Argos]

But RO is all about speed. Slowing things down certainly doesn't make it more interesting. ;(

I'll agree AD/EDP should be limited (within reason) but gems of all sorts should remain unlimited.

Hehe, on the interesting part of ro being speed, I have to agree it is fun, but it is far from being the most enjoyable part of the game from me, but its all a matter of opinion here.??

edit : But the game won't necessary be slower, but it is irrefutable that it could happen.?

If you think ad/edp should be limited, why don't you think gems should be limited too???And what do you think about the other restrictions I suggested (such as no elemental converter, no panacea, only 1 aspd potion, etc ?)

[Nidsrule]

Because AD and EDP can have a huge impact on the match compared to skills related to gems. They are both powerful skills, a lot more so compared to any of the gem skills, and a little thought required by any creators/sinx would make things more interesting. I'm thinking a ratio of poison bottles equal to 1/3 of the total maximum match time (10 minute match, round it down to 3 bottles) and for AD, say around 3-4 bottles per number of people in each team. Limitation applies to each type of character in each team they can choose to drop/trade these supplies as they see fit (during the match) but the restrictions should be met going into the match.

To limit basilica, you can limit holy water instead of gems. I prefer the idea of open item usage (other than usage of ygg items, excluding leaves and custom healing items). Id rather start with open item usage and implement limitations from there, rather than guessing at what will be fair and going the opposite way.

Any item limitations imposed later on would have to be considered for any changes required to the number of allowed items per match (EDP/AD).

[Général_Argos]

It's good to know we agreed on the aproximate ratio of ad and poison bottles.??

Because AD and EDP can have a huge impact on the match compared to skills related to gems.

Your argument makes no sense.??If that would be the case, you wouldn't be complaining that prof would get 30/20/10 gems (and others 15/10/5).??

"To limit basilica"
It's not about basilica, it's about all skills requiring gems.??With 15 blue gems, you can raise everyone 3 times.??Or you can make 1 raise, and 2 sw per people when you need to save them from asura.??Or you can use basilica, but thus limit the use of other skills.??It's all this stuff that will increase the amount of unpredictable during fights.??Will the wizard use a blue gem to save himself from asura, or will he let himself die, and make the priest ress him because he is running low on blues and need them for ganbanteim???With only 10 reds, he will have to choose carefully when to use stone curse, thus not necessery use it evertime he can, etc etc etc

Id rather start with open item usage and implement limitations from there, rather than guessing at what will be fair and going the opposite way.

That has been done gazillion of times.??It's the history of pvp on hero and worldwide, and the reason why we lack evidence of what would happen with heavy item restriction.??


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edit : It is 1:44 am here, I am going to sleep and check the thread tomorow.


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[Nidsrule]

Whatever. I'm not interested in any form of PvP that has item restrictions of that extent. I just see 1 AD/EDP having the ability to turn the tide of a battle in an instant, wheres 1 dispel or stone curse generally won't have the same effect. EDP and AD don't HAVE to be spammed in order to be effective, while most gem related skills just don't function properly when used in such limited conditions.

Bless > Stone Curse
Rebuffing in bragi > Dispell

[Général_Argos]

Rebuffing the endow gives the info of wich element is used
With only 1 aspd pot you can't get again the bonus
etc
etc

It have to be think as a whole restriction, you can't just add one of them, because yes, it would make no sense.

Now I'm really going to sleep.