heRO SvN Update

[Neuneck]

Darkblade Wrote:create a new item "waterlogged card album"
remove the high-end cards from its drop list
replace the OCA dropped in fishing with this new album

+10 !!

Nerf fishing, not OCA! It's not the Card from OCA that messed things up, it's OCA from fishing!

[Ardney Wolf]

Thanks Ayu for taking the time to respond and open some dialogue on this. Nidsrule and I seem to be on roughly the same page and (s)he's made several of the points I was going to make already. Let me just drop in 1 or 2 clarifications on my personal stance.

First off, I would like to reiterate that I'm not bothered by BGs not being implemented immediately because I know tech difficulties are tech difficulties. What I am against is the mistaken view that the BG gears are in any way overpowered or game breaking. I formed this opinion while playing on the official servers where they were implemented so take that for what it's worth. My 1st hand experience ends prior to the release of the KvM BGs so I can't directly comment on their items or the way those BGs play out. For people who don't have any experience with BGs, a description of what they are can be found here.

The issue of balance with the weapons has largely been addressed but I would just like to make 1 more point. The comparison to BG weapons and high end hydra-carded weapons has been made but this misses the mark. They're better than high end hydra carded weapons for a reason. These gears were added with mature servers in mind where the playerbase has largely managed to acquire many high-end, highly upgraded items. heRO is a server that fits this description. By added def or mdef bypass on each of the BG 1 gears, it serves to upset the status quo and force people to adjust their habits/tactics slightly. A hidden benefit of this is that it actually helps newer players to fight somewhat (though not at all exactly) evenly with the veterans as they have their lethality significantly increased without requiring a multi-month investment. No matter how you look at that, this is a good thing

Secondly, BG gears while mainly geared for PvP are not completely devoid of PvM benefits. The Priest staff given by the Flavius BG is actually equivalent (possibly better, can't remember) to a +10 Staff of Recovery for healing purposes, the Mage medallions add a small chance of stun to every magic attack, etc. These??items serve to add more options to each class. There isn't a single class that cannot benefit in some way both PvP and PvM wise by having access to the BG gears. And the best part is that even if a person absolutely sucks at PvP they will still get access to those gears as medals are awarded for losing as well as winning.

Which brings me to the next point. Much talk has occurred regarding how "unfair" the matchups can be for certain classes but this seems to have taken only the KvM BGs into account. The Tierra Gorge and Flavius BGs are team efforts where any class can be useful since the objective is not merely to kill other players but to defend an objective while destroying your opponents objective. There are many strategies for doing this that involve many different classes. And again, even if you do end up with a team that lacks experience, coordination, gear, or just plain gets outplayed by your opponents you're time still isn't wasted because you're still getting medals.

^That being the case, there is no need for extra coding or GM supervision to facilitate BGs. In all honesty, many similar concerns regarding teams and playability were raised by the community on iRO prior to the initial release of Tierra and Flavius and they were largely unwarranted. Things went?a lot more smoothly than anyone anticipated once people actually had a chance to try it out and understand how it worked.

But again, as Ayu mentioned this is all somewhat moot as we are not (currently) able to implement BGs. That's fine and understandable. But that does not mean that the actual BG items can't be included in the game at some point through alternate means. The only reason for keeping them out is a perception of imbalance that they might bring which is what I'm vehemently arguing against here because I believe (from experience) that that view is 100% wrong. If the GM team feels that certain items are game-breaking then they're not ever going to revisit the idea of implementing them even if they do have the means to do so down the road. This seems to be what has happened with the slotted elemental armors and it's what I'm trying to avoid having happen to all the BG gears.

And while we're here let me make a couple of last quick points about slotted ele armors. 1st, they're not in any way unbalanced. Learn to use endows, converters, or ele weaps. Simple as. In fact, most people already do this in WoE due to the large number of GRs on the server. The only difference would be that they would have to do it more intelligently to match a primary element rathe than randomly with any element to do basic damage agaisnt Ghost.

As to coding issues arising when an element card is slotted in elemental armor, the solution is as simple as mimicking what occurs on iRO. 2nd element always overrides 1st element. An armor can never have 2 elements. If you slot a bathory in a Fire armor, congratulations, you've just made really expensive shadow armor (note, this actually happened on the official servers. Much mockery ensued). This effect is actually already seen in-game when someone with a GR stands in Gospel and it becomes holy element. The server desn't explode, it just overrides.

TL;DR: BGs are this It is my belief that the perception that the newer items and gears are overpowered is wrong. This perception must be corrected or newer content will be less and less likely to be implemented. BGs, if they could be implemented, would function smoothly and provide something else for people to do ingame while at the same time giving their characters more diversity in gameplay styles. BG gears and slotted elemental armors are not OP, just different.

[Motenai_Ronin]

Is this a coincidence, I think I've seen Tierra Gorge map the last time Hero did a major Storyline RP event. The one with the two "emp" batteries to be destroyed.

[GM-Pandora]

Everyone screams "svn plz" and then we always get a lot of complaint due to what svn change brings XD Gotta take the good with the bad remember. And we're doing what we think is best for the server, thanks for the suggestions nonetheless, the "waterlogged card album" is actually quite interesting and I'll consider it.

In regards to battleground, I'm not opposed to having it after some change, I think if implemented right it could greatly improve the pvp which is lacking on hero, I was also enthousiastic when you Nidsrule offered to make your own version of it for heRO specifically. But "as is" is not an option we want to go with. Therefor, in order to actually release the svn there are features we had to cut because we don't feel they are adequate as they are and if we wait to have modified everything we'll never release the update at all. The same with woe2 and some other features, we're interested in eventually doing something with them so they become good assets of heRO.

As for the battleground rewards, since the website Ardney pointed to doesn't have the actual stat bonus you can check this one if you're curious:
http://ro.doddlercon.com/wiki/index.php?...nd#Rewards

I've taken a look at it, and in addition to believing some of those to be overpowered, there are parts of them that simply cannot be scripted currently on eAthena, some of the items cast skills that don't exist yet in the svn, or give an effect when casting another skill which is also unlikely to be coded already, I think other things arent possible yet, such as bypass of magic defense on demi-human only, etc. This doesn't mean we're not getting Battlegrounds ever, but we'll take the time to adjust how it works and what it gives.

tldr: hang in there, we're trying to come up with the best for heRO ^_^

Jugger: yes you're right, we used it in an arc event, cool looking map.

[Motenai_Ronin]

Huh....so if we had that map back then does that mean we already have renewal maps stuck in the back of the server somewheres?

[Nidsrule]

GM-Pandora Wrote:In regards to battleground, I'm not opposed to having it after some change, I think if implemented right it could greatly improve the pvp which is lacking on hero, I was also enthousiastic when you Nidsrule offered to make your own version of it for heRO specifically. But "as is" is not an option we want to go with. Therefor, in order to actually release the svn there are features we had to cut because we don't feel they are adequate as they are and if we wait to have modified everything we'll never release the update at all. The same with woe2 and some other features, we're interested in eventually doing something with them so they become good assets of heRO.

Still waiting for Vanadis to get back to me regarding the part of the script I gave him. I reminded him a few times but it still managed to slip his mind.

GM-Pandora Wrote:I've taken a look at it, and in addition to believing some of those to be overpowered, there are parts of them that simply cannot be scripted currently on eAthena, some of the items cast skills that don't exist yet in the svn, or give an effect when casting another skill which is also unlikely to be coded already, I think other things arent possible yet, such as bypass of magic defense on demi-human only, etc. This doesn't mean we're not getting Battlegrounds ever, but we'll take the time to adjust how it works and what it gives.

I believe they use bIgnoreDefRate for % defense ignore on a certain monster (bIgnoreDefRate, *RACE*, *%*) and bIgnoreMdefRate in a similar manner for % mdef bypass. This is taken from the item scripts on RMS; Here. The item description used for that weapon is clearly wrong and should state "Ignores 25% of Demi Human defense" instead of "Adds 25% defense to the Demi human monster."

Same thing applies to skills triggering other skills. Looking at the KVM weapons on RMS I see bAutoSpellOnSkill is used on a few of them; Here.

For interests sake I went back and looked through the SVN changelog to see just where these changes were made.

For bAutoSpellOnSkill, it was added with changeset 13596: Here.

bIgnoreDefRate was added in changeset 13457: Here.

Finally, bIgnoreMdefRate was added in changeset 11112: Here.

The most recent of those updates, being changeset 13596 is 5 months old, based on the dates used by the link. The oldest, which is also the one you make mention of (bIgnoreMdefRate), has been around for the past 2 years.

[Millia]

here is few thinks i was wondering about this update....

#1: is east of Morroc now Satan's path of destruction?
#2: if so are morroc's incarnations in there?

#3: does the new DB rooms mean we can tele/fwing in em again?
#4: does private DB room stay the same?

#5: do we get quest window yet?
#6: is maiden hat now fully updated?

#7: do we get in to woe:se guild duns yet? if so how?
#8: will woe:se guild dun GvG effect be implemented?

#9: does "adding new mosters to DBs" mean up to new world monsters as well as customs?
#10: are Rachel/Thor's/nameless monster cards added to OCA?(tho i doubt it since OCA died around rachel)

#11: do this update modify Seyren's 8?cell ranged spiral pierce?
#12: where are Phreeoni's(Biner[2]), Moonlight flower's(Staff of Ord[1]),Edgga's(Krieg[3]) & Orc Lord's(Erde[2]) new drops? just forgot from the list?

#13: does any of these questions make any sense?
#14: will any of Moscovia quests be added?

and im done.

P.S. that watered down(not pun intended) OCA for fishing sounds awesome...

[Former-GM-Vanadis]

bIgnoreMdefRate and bIgnoreDefRate have bonus2 versions, taking race as second argument.

The OnSkill bonuses only exists in trunk and not in stable. Either they aren't deemed stable enough to get merged to stable or someone just forgot to do it, no idea which it is.

[GM-Ayu]

@Jugg: again, ep 13 isn't automatically renewal. We have *nothing* from renewal right now.


FOR THOSE WHO DON'T WANT TO READ WALLS OF TEXT BUT WANT TO FIND OUT MY SUMMARY OF WHAT I THINK IS BEST FOR BG IN HERO, READ ITALICIZED PART.


@Ardney:
"A hidden benefit of this is that it actually helps newer players to fight somewhat (though not at all exactly) evenly with the veterans as they have their lethality significantly increased without requiring a multi-month investment."

Take the exact reverse: it helps veterans stomp the new players more by cutting 20% of the little defenses that they have. Not saying that you are making false claims, but it's "neutralized" out by the exact opposite, so I don't consider that a pro since it comes with an equal con.


"The Tierra Gorge and Flavius BGs are team efforts where any class can be useful since the objective is not merely to kill other players but to defend an objective while destroying your opponents objective."

Except again some class excel in one area but can't exactly take up flexible roles. BG1 still follows the same problem too though at least you got 5 minute natural cooldown against ragging the match. Instead of classifying as killer/support, BG1 got defender/attacker classification generally, and having only one without enough of the other, you still lose due to inferior class distribution. You can say BG1 fixes this by choosing. However, Small pvp community results in people knowing pretty darn well who's who, and now you can go "oh hey x player is 1337 and x is in north team but y player who sucks is in south team, I'm soooo going north."

"You're still getting medals"

Now isn't that convenient for contributing to the suicidal approach~

"(summarized) worked on iRO regardless of worries"

When you have the reasonable large sample, the teams are largely randomized fairly because spots in the 2 rooms fill up fast. Even if say we open up one room, does heRO going to get 20 people filling up at a *fast* rate to stop people from switching teams/organizing suiciders/guild hogging though...? You're demanding just slightly less than 10% of the server to join the game, and to randomize it by filling up fast like iRO can, you'll need an even bigger portion of the server population to join *consistently*.

Personally, I only see the rush of people coming to try, IF it's GM hosted. On top of GM capable of solving the very problematic team issues (which imho, is the core of all BG problems for pserver cause we just aren't some 1000+ pop serv like official), once you get the GM to call them to do the same thing though, they'll come alright~ (and by then, the big point of BG is lost: automated, freely accessible PVP. I guess you can say, "BG event" to being a form of pvp tourney then.) I think this is the best approach to BG in heRO. Depending on frequency of hosting, adjust how many badges are necessary as seem fit.

@BG equipment release? (in case if this is brought up)

Not *all* BG gears are remotely plausible in being overpowered, but once you release the stuff for some classes, you now start the first case in the book for others to say "if this class has their BG prizes why can't we have ours?" This is only a minor concern, but still a concern.

The only reason plausible for this is for technical reasons due to weapon spriting setup in the item databases.

@adjusting BG equip?

If we start adjusting BG equip, why aren't we just making a darn custom equip with our desired result? Thus why adjusting BG equip 'until they strike a good compromise' is kinda silly...

@slotted elemental armor:

no only the water one is the "iffy" one... no one cares about earth, fire is just icing but not gamebreaking. Wind is wizzy hate but wizzy seriously aren't meant for pvp in my opinion (they're a team player, and again I don't think that RO makes any sense outside of GVG/WoE). It's usually not so much weapons, but rather water marc/ED's affect on spells precast turning to crap as if it's not pottable enough. Water marc heavily negates SG (slap on glorious ring and the usual valk shield, and water immunity is obtained), resists MS reasonably well, and LoV is just pitiful even with elemental advantage. You really weaken a spellcaster's role down to "locking people" or just hitting people who aren't adequately equipped.

@"RMS script" did it!

RMS is getting weird scripts from I have no idea where... for example, Valorous Huuma Front Shuriken:

{ bonus bStr,2; bonus bDex,1; bonus2 bAddRace,RC_DemiHuman,95; bonusautoscript "{ sc_start4 SC_SKILLATKBONUS,10000,525,544,0,10; }",50; bonus bUnbreakableWeapon,0; },{},{}

There is no such thing as sc_skillatkbonus in my const file. Server says that the command is not known (I use 13923 stable for my own test dev where i made most items for our upcoming svn.) It's probably not from trunk either since trunk got autobonus already, so there's no need to use bonusautoscripot sc_start... I have no idea what's RMS doing *at all*, and their monster databases lately aren't following stable OR trunk.

The lack of "SC_SKILLATKBONUS" or "autobonus" does not allow the scripting of roughly 4 BG items. Mostly the gunslingers' stuff lol.

Suffice to say, RMS is no longer a valid authority in technical discussions as well.

[GM-Ayu]

Millia Wrote:here is few thinks i was wondering about this update....

#1: is east of Morroc now Satan's path of destruction?
No because dimension gorge is under the "coming" section, mostly because continental quest is never scripted yet, so Pandora will need to script that
#2: if so are morroc's incarnations in there?
If you can access the map somehow, yeah... so is Satan morroc himself

#3: does the new DB rooms mean we can tele/fwing in em again?
Yes because tele is disabled initially only because of the current room 6 bug. New room means room 6 wont' exist, so why disable tele?
#4: does private DB room stay the same?
I believe so

#5: do we get quest window yet?
Not sure actually... I know it's attempted but I don't know how well it turned out to be, and I wasn't the one looking over this project

#6: is maiden hat now fully updated?
yes

#7: do we get in to woe:se guild duns yet? if so how?
The WoE:SE dungeons are "ready to use" but access is not something I determine, but they are filled with monsters and ready to go

#8: will woe:se guild dun GvG effect be implemented?
Depends on how they are accessed, this may change

#9: does "adding new mosters to DBs" mean up to new world monsters as well as customs?
Yes

#10: are Rachel/Thor's/nameless monster cards added to OCA?(tho i doubt it since OCA died around rachel)
No I didn't play with OCA since that one is always 'sensitive' issue, but not hard to do so (at most an hour's work) once decision is made

#11: do this update modify Seyren's 8?cell ranged spiral pierce?
It's an eA eternal error that also made ifrit twice as hard than official XD. eA monster skills are pre-determined, identical for all skills that a monster can use. Official monster skills follow player's range as well. So for Seyren, in official they use spiral at 3, spear boom at 10 and etc. In eA, all skills be it spiral or spear boom or fire attack lv 10, it's all 10 cell range. This one is hard coded (note that spiral is only used in Seyren's AI if he is attacking, so he can start casting it only if he's in 2 cell range, but you have to get out of 10 cell range to escape the attack once charging starts. Likewise, Ifrit he can't strip or SB you if you are standing on 3 cells away form him, but this doesn't work in eA since Ifrit is perfectly fine with SBing you 2 or 3 cells away.

#12: where are Phreeoni's(Biner[2]), Moonlight flower's(Staff of Ord[1]),Edgga's(Krieg[3]) & Orc Lord's(Erde[2]) new drops? just forgot from the list?
Erde's missing is explained. Krieg got moved to Samurai custom-ly because Eddga got enough trash with high enough popularity, where 'someone else' can really REALLY need it (up-ed drop rate to compensate for difficulty between samurai vs eddga). Phreeoni's new toys, yeah I just forgot to list them. Moonie's Staff may have been moved to gopinch... I'll need to re-update the front cause i wrote it when test serv was down.

#13: does any of these questions make any sense?
Yes

#14: will any of Moscovia quests be added?
Short answer is no. Long answer is that they are commented out by default for reasons unknown... "technically" can uncomment it out to see what it's like and how broken it is, and how much work we need to do to finish it up... or is it one of those "can't do it in stable, only in trunk" thing...

P.S. that watered down(not pun intended) OCA for fishing sounds awesome...
Actually I suggested making customized "random item generator" (as in, how you open OCA and you get a random card, OPB you open it and get random item, a "random item generator") before but I forgot why it was casted out XD;