heRO SvN Update

[Former-GM-Nara]

Hmm you could order it from another place so that you don't have to wait a few weeks for it or even try local stores lol.

And ayu those bucklers are scary. 130def? what in the world?!

[GM-Ayu]

Those are renewal equipments. All defs count as soft def, so a 130 def shield means a 130 damage reduction, not 130%.

[Galt]

3) battlegrounds (all versions)
...
-extreme balance issue of battleground equipments/rewards

Please elaborate on what the GM team considers "extreme balance issues". This statement has me curious and worried at the same time.

Re-quoting Ardney's post in case you guys missed it with the whole elemental-bow-and-90-def-shields-talk.

[GM-Ayu]

Basically, if you have battleground equipments, rarely do you have to hunt for an actual equipment because often they suffice if not beat a "natural carded" weapon.

Eg. Glorious Bloody Roar[0] vs Infiltrator[hydra]
both weapons share same attack power and weapon level, so it's all up to the effect now:

Glorious Bloody Roar
????* increases physical damage versus demi-human opponents by 70%.
????* Bypasses 20% of the defense on demi-human opponents.
????* Unbreakable.

Upgrade Bonuses:

????* +6: Bypass additional 5% of the defense on demi-human opponents.
??????Slaughtering Level 1.
????* +9: When attacking physically, chance to increase ASPD by 100% for 3 seconds.


Slaughter lv 1 does this:
(Upgrade Level - 4) ^ 2 increased % damage vs demihuman
(so at +6, it gives 4%, then +7 9%, then +8 16%, +9 25%, +10 36%)

Indestructible (except in upgrade attempts).

Infiltrator[hydra]
increases physical damage versus demi-human opponents by 70% (50 initial + 20 from hydra)
DEF + 3
Flee Rate + 5
Perfect Dodge + 2

So at worse, it is "equal" to fully carded Infiltrator[hydra] which are usually left at +4 or +5 most of the time in base % damage. Higher refine can net you increasingly better results in the % department. But the KvM Katar gives you 20% bypass consistently on every attack (not one of those, % to activate when attack type. This always bypass). The 3 def, 5 flee and 2 perfect dodge can hardly match to the 20% bypass.


MATH WARNING ALERT


Now you can say that it's balanced and justified because 3200 KVM Points (battleground currency) is a lot and you have to pvp/win lots to do this. True on kRO, but erm what's the pvp population here compare to there? After the first 100 or 300 points, you are probably fighting the same people who you probably beat the first time, and most likely you can beat them again unless battleground gave you unlucky class matchups. Our small population of 250-300 people (since with merch we have 400), it's not overly difficult to send your guild to KvM all at once, and take over the entire KvM at the same time to the point of your own guild fighting each other, and by then not hard to rake the results so the game ends as fast as possible. Then, you can earn more and more KvM points faster and faster.

So exactly how fast do you earn points? For the sake of calculation, I omit the time needed to gather the "KvM grind" pvp party, since pvm grinding, optimal hydra spots may be "taken" by alchemists already, or other people at the same map reducing your mobbing speed too. I make the assumption that the 2 types of delay balance each other out.

Lv 90 and higher KvM (don't have to be trans), you get 5 points for winning, 1 point for losing for everyone on that team. The *longest* amount of time KvM allows is 5 minutes (usually last less than that, and if it's friends vs friends, usually one team suicides to speed it up). So at "half of maximum time" of 2.5 minute for 5 points, you need 27 hours to get one katar. Sounds like a lot?

Now let's count statistically how many monsters do you need to kill to hunt a hydra + enough infiltrator to successfully slot?

Fighting 2000 monsters have a 56% chance of obtaining at least one (or more) 0.03% drop item. I think this is a fair success rate to take since it's kind of close to "half the time you get it really fast, and half the time it takes you beyond statistical average to get a card/infiltrator."

2000 hydra = hydra card

So how many infiltrator is needed? At 3rd infiltrator slot attempt, you have a 50% of failing again,s o let's assume 3. This means, 6000 nightmares are needed.

Think you can get 1 hydra card and 3 infiltrator in 27 hours?

More than likely, even if we do have battlegrounds, we will change the prizes, or adjust battleground equipment stats (and we have no plans to adjust their stats yet, not even discussions on it so I can't tell you what "type of adjustments" are GMs thinking of. It's just one of the many possibility of what we can do with KvM.) I researched other low rate servers who have functioning battlegrounds, and most of them also seem to have taken the approach of customizing prizes, such as a new type of "(server name) prize box" which is like, a better version of OPB that only drops equipments, or dropping woe materials/consumables or kafra shop's 1 weight +10 stat item type of prizes.

For comparison on another low rate, their prizes changed to this:
(prizes costing less than 80: they are all potion packages)
- Jewelry Box: 80 Badges
- Old Card Album: 100 Badges
- lvl 10 Food (you can choose one): 150 Badges
- Valkyrja's Shield[1]: 500 Badges
- Flying Angel[0]: 1000 Badges


It's the same reason why we took out Hugel's Bingo for Ice Pick and slotted elemental armors, even though those are "official". Works for official cause they have a huge playerbase and the supply is only as small as us so they need alternative outlets to release things people want. But, for us, we really don't need alternative outlets on high end, well refined equipments (fairy auctions do act as 'alternative outlets' for us, but you'll realize that things we sell there are hardly immediately ready for PvP action like the glorious bloody roar can.)


//////


Either way, these discussion on theoretical numbers are kinda moot when battleground is in "trunk" and we are in "stable." That's honestly far bigger of a problem than you think in many aspects, and this problem applies for any servers as old as we are.

[Ardney Wolf]

I understood from the get-go that BGs can't be implemented yet due to technical issues. The main reason I asked was to find out what was considered "imbalancing" about the BG gears as this would also indicate the GMs attitude to changes brought about by updated items in general.

So if I understand you correctly, even if we could implement the BGs you would not implement their proper prizes because they're better than current hydra/skel worker weapons? I strongly disagree with this approach to updates. The very nature of MMOs guarantees that as time goes by and new content is implemented, certain items because less desirable or even obsolete. This is not a bad thing. It's simply progress.

And as for the slotted elemental armors, you seem to (as far as I can tell) have simply removed them from the game entirely with no alternative method of acquisition. I'm not clear on the rationale for this, but I disagree with the decision as well as it removes a dimension from the WoE/PvP scene namely: element guessing/swapping.

Apologies if this comes across as harsh as that is not my intention. I certainly appreciate the work that has gone into maintaining the server and preparing the updates. This is meant only as constructive criticism of the approach to implementing content and I hope it is considered in that light.

[azurerogue]

-Angeling and Ghostring removed from old card album

I've known about this, as have several other people. I'd like to make one point, however, even though I don't expect the plan to change.

I know it's an "official" eAthena change, but let me point out the unique problems that may arise in heRO. Yes, every server not created AFTER this particular SvN would go through some transition. But OCAs have always been quite easy to come by on heRO. This, in turn, means the current GR/Angeling count on the server (GR being the more critical card) is abnormally high for our population.

After this change, new guilds, new players and anyone who didn't fish up a GR card in the past will have their chances decreased substantially. This would be SOMEWHAT problematic on any server, but it is far more problematic on heRO. It's not like only five, ten, or even twenty people have GRs on this server. There are a ton of them, and any new guild will find that out after they get into WoE and it will be frustrating when they learn that, in the past, you could just go fishing (which gets you free pots, makes you money, and gets you cards, and hatter cards) to get a GR while they now have to trust to farming it.

This isn't by any means game breaking, but I'm wondering if this position was considered at all? Like I said, I don't expect the plans to change at all, but I wanted to through that out there.

[Avalon_Fates]

Ah...If we only run a single WoE:2 Castle we got enough people to add it. Just run it on its own Day.

[CannabisCorpse]

-Angeling and Ghostring removed from old card album

I've known about this, as have several other people.??I'd like to make one point, however, even though I don't expect the plan to change.??

I know it's an "official" eAthena change, but let me point out the unique problems that may arise in heRO.??Yes, every server not created AFTER this particular SvN would go through some transition.??But OCAs have always been quite easy to come by on heRO.??This, in turn, means the current GR/Angeling count on the server (GR being the more critical card) is abnormally high for our population.??

After this change, new guilds, new players and anyone who didn't fish up a GR card in the past will have their chances decreased substantially.??This would be SOMEWHAT problematic on any server, but it is far more problematic on heRO.??It's not like only five, ten, or even twenty people have GRs on this server.??There are a ton of them, and any new guild will find that out after they get into WoE and it will be frustrating when they learn that, in the past, you could just go fishing (which gets you free pots, makes you money, and gets you cards, and hatter cards) to get a GR while they now have to trust to farming it.??

This isn't by any means game breaking, but I'm wondering if this position was considered at all???Like I said, I don't expect the plans to change at all, but I wanted to through that out there.??

I second this statement.

[GM-Ayu]

@Ardney Wolf:

Problem with battleground isn't strictly related to the equips.

The problem isn't so much with "oh no it got better" but it's more related to the point of player mentality too. Let's say that we give out hydra cards as a prize. From my analysis, that's honestly fine cause the default BG weapons have built in hydra (in a fashion where it's definitely top of the line and not a "wasted hydra") anyway so it's basically the same. However I doubt the results from players will be overly accepted, and most likely we'll end up with polarized activity: those who believe that pvp is undernourished in RO and that BG is a great fix to the situation by giving a reward for pvp, and those who thinks that pvm is once again the one being thrashed upon ("why's PvP the be all/end all of all things, what about <insert another aspect of RO here>", if they get ultimate top tier prizes why can't we get something of equal value for doing such-and-such". BG has a problem of making a server more polarized of "PvP players" against "PvM players" even more than it does now: why can BG reward end game equipment for their needs, but say how come big pvm events don't reward end game mvp needs?

Recall how 3rd classes is seen as "progress" yet plenty of players are highly reluctant to the idea, similar to how trans class take forever to finally have acceptance, yet we're still going back and forth about EDP/link's boost and what not. Especially given this server's age, it's a tough one to tackle.

(also, personally I just want to get this SvN out there as we badly needed one... I rather temporaily take questionable contents out, then argue +more number theory later. Don't let the small bits delay the general package of content.)

As for slotted elemental armor, few servers resulted in a wipe purely because of the slotted wind and slotted water armor alone. Marc combined with those have (apparently) over-devastating effect. The calculation of GR + slotted elementals is also a "mystery". Also, slotted version of the elemental armors are used by all classes, not just the melee classes unlike their non-slotted forms.

Other problem is: BG has its own problems EVEN IF we do have the population. The constant problem is that the teams are randomized, and since it's a team pvp game, skills can't change the tide of battle enough compare to just a bad team setup. If you're left with 3 high priests, sniper and a super novice, compare to a balanced team of champ, creator, HP, sinx, prof, it's commonly agreed that the luck of the draw for what class is on your team outweighs "skill factor". If you restrict the game so only such-and-such class joins to get even teams, then it's too hard to start a game cause it's too specific. If you ditch part of the automation to help with balancing the teams, you don't end up with battleground, but a GM hosted pvp tournament.

@Albus:

Yes it's been mentioned, but the GM team itself is concerned of the problem that's summarized as such:

"Better late than never" VS "It's too late to turn back"

Some of us say, better stop the influx now than not doing anything about it, so that at least with time again it'll still neutralize it out a bit (as old players leave, etc). The other is as you said, it'll be hard for new players to catch up and doesn't help to the image that heRO is one of the oldest servers, thus everyone in the server must have everything already from the days when sinx mvp is solo-able and everyone must have an ice pick by now or something (or that's how some outside people view us.) So we went to the default: if GM is in a deadlock, gravity's decision is a tie breaker.

And that's how it was decided.

Now something I know but GM haven't really talked about much... there's an item called Ghostring scroll. It changes your armor to ghost for 3 minutes. One way to look at it is that it can be a decent compromise of GRs by giving a temperate one, so what if we put a "GR scroll box" in OCA instead? The trouble that shot down the idea is... "and does all hell break loose if someone pops up one of these on top of a well refined, carded armor (like marc or status armors)?" GR is designed so that once you are ghost in armor, your armor shouldn't give other bonuses, but sadly GR Scroll can't detect that... thus the idea went out the window.

@Angel Fate:

Again besides tech difficulty, people want non-trans to "run on its down day" then woe2 "run on its own day." Then there's still 2 normal woe because cutting it down to one results in "oh no, we got no chance to break it? too much free eco especially with castle upgrade wtf GM biased BLAHHHHH" (remember the giant fiasco due to Dec 25th being on a wednesday and we canceled it for one night, and all the hell that broke lose on main over that one night?) When WoE gets too often, you really lose the specialty... Sometimes you appreciate something, because you can't always get it.

[Nidsrule]

Problem with battleground isn't strictly related to the equips.

Your last wall of text was dedicated to describing how one of the assassin BG weapons was better than a carded infiltrator. Then you turn around and say that isn't the main issue. So, what's the real problem then?

Basically, if you have battleground equipments, rarely do you have to hunt for an actual equipment because often they suffice if not beat a "natural carded" weapon.

What is the problem with that? People participating in battlegrounds aren't going to simply go from a set of +4 PvM based gears to a full set of BG gears. Anyone serious about participating in BG's will at least have tried to gear up for WoE and PvP in general. Otherwise, they can look forward to getting steamrolled. Oh and before you start making claims that this is imbalanced from the point of view of new players because they won't have much hope in catching up with "older players". BG's reward both the winning and losing side, so although they will have to put up with getting thrashed to get their gears, they will still eventually end up with the gears they want.

This sense of releasing updates only to appease newer players is redundant. heRO no longer has an issue with attracting new players, but from my point of view it has a serious issue with keeping older players interested. Simply ruling in favor of the interests of new players' is in no way going to help heRO's already lacking PvP environment.

The problem isn't so much with "oh no it got better" but it's more related to the point of player mentality too. Let's say that we give out hydra cards as a prize. From my analysis, that's honestly fine cause the default BG weapons have built in hydra (in a fashion where it's definitely top of the line and not a "wasted hydra") anyway so it's basically the same. However I doubt the results from players will be overly accepted, and most likely we'll end up with polarized activity: those who believe that pvp is undernourished in RO and that BG is a great fix to the situation by giving a reward for pvp, and those who thinks that pvm is once again the one being thrashed upon ("why's PvP the be all/end all of all things, what about <insert another aspect of RO here>", if they get ultimate top tier prizes why can't we get something of equal value for doing such-and-such". BG has a problem of making a server more polarized of "PvP players" against "PvM players" even more than it does now: why can BG reward end game equipment for their needs, but say how come big pvm events don't reward end game mvp needs?

What the hell. Everything about RO, outside of WoE and the very very rare times that the pvp room is active is either about being afk/wasting time talking about nothing in town or participating in PvM. One of the biggest aspects of the SvN update (which for some odd reason isn't even being released first thing anyway) is yet another PvM aspect of the game in the Satan Morroc maps/Dimensional Gorge. Every aspect of gearing a character, at this point, involves some form of PvM.

Then we have heRO's PvP scene. The only real custom aspect that tried to address PvP have been ToH (takes far too much time and only occurs once a month) and the sporadic attempts at hosting GM hosted PvP events did not work. That's not to say I don't appreciate the attempt to promote more PvP events but they didn't work.

So, I'm not convinced of the whole "striking a balance" thing. There is no balance what so ever when it comes to PvP and PvM in RO. Battlegrounds was Gravity's attempt to fix this balance (at least in my opinion) and it works quite well. It's aimed at higher level players, you know, the kind of players who have spent most of their time on RO in a PvM environment trying to level/gear up, so that these players can have another avenue of gearing their chars once they are sick of the same old PvM environment.

Basically, if you have battleground equipments, rarely do you have to hunt for an actual equipment because often they suffice if not beat a "natural carded" weapon.

Once again we get back to this point. The logic behind the bolded statement ONLY applies to the weapons. The battlegrounds armors are all slotted and would require yet another set of PvP based cards (marc, ray, noxious, thara blah blah blah). So you continue by showing one of the Katars as an example. Why no comparisons between the other weapons? Although it provides what some might see as an unnecessary boost to the damage output of a SinX, the other weapons provide (in some cases) much needed buffs to classes.

Case in point, the Clown/Gypsy weapons. Although they in no way make Arrow Vulcan overpowered, they do make it tickle a bit more than it generally does. Same goes for some of the other classes, who's skills become a joke against a target with high defense. The real bonus for these classes lies in their armor sets from BG. Clown and Gypsy in particular receive some very nice buffs which might for once have people playing a gypsy for WoE (clowns on the other hand are a given).

Anyway, which ever reason you have chosen to back in opposition of battlegrounds being implemented (and they seem to be very different views/excuses), I can't say I agree with either being decent reasons for with holding such a major upgrade to RO's PvP environment. I hope you guys at least have something in the works to improve heRO's PvP environment; you can only kill so many mavkas/hillwinds/necros/kasa/blahblahblah before it gets old and tiresome.

RE: Imbalanced teams.

This gets balanced out to a certain degree through both sides at least winning something each round. Sure people might get bad runs of being on the losing side but they'll still have their runs of being on the opposite end as well. I'd still live with the idea of imbalanced teams over having no BGs at all.