Card Removal - before complaining after reading the title, read the damn thread

[The Roger]

Actually, it could be a nice idea, Spire :o

[Wyatt]

I personally don't care either way. Most of my friends are good with planning ahead and making a good choice on what cards / gears to use. A card removal npc would get some use I'm sure, most likely by a small handful of people only, and once they've re-assembled their gears I don't think many people would frequent its use. Been without one so long that hopefully everyone plans their gear out, I'm sure most do.

The idea of a tier-based cost system is good, not all gear and cards are equal; there needs to be a balance on how much cost for what gear and card types. WHAT it costs is a prickly subject. Regardless of what any of us, playing this server right now think on how much WE would like it to cost, we all need to think on new players..

If a new player comes to this server and sees ' Card removal npc = 100m ' you honestly think they'd stay? Cost balance is a big thing. You have it too low, it gets abused because people are lazy. Cost balance is too high, the only one to ever use it will be Roger.

Nothing overly wrong with having a card removal npc, it'd get used for a while by people holding onto gear they want to re-assemble, and with the bloody branch level brackets for the boss' that come out there's nothing stopping more GRs, Devilings, Angelings etc from being made. Old ones in existence aren't a huge concern in my opinion, but I also don't own any and don't enjoy pvp so I can't say much.

I think that, yea, maybe they should put a card removal npc in, BUT it would need a balanced cost system. Too low, people get lazy. Too high, only like 5 people or less would ever use it. So working on a good tier balance for cost is major, AND in my opinion, it should require a QUEST! Yes, a quest. Something with enough back-and-forth npc talking and random item collecting to make it doable for most everyone.. That is willing to work for it.

:EDIT: Talking to Cyan a minute ago he tossed out a good idea. Have it also require a stack of Blank Card items, and maybe some npc dialogue about ' card remover research ' but he needs the blank ones for practice. Rekenber corp +1.

[The Roger]

Five months passed, and i mind on this subject evolved a bit, mainly thanks to SPire's suggestion of a Fairy Auctioned decarding service instead of a npc.

I am now more inclined to not have a NPC, having instead it auctioned randomly in FAs.

Pros of that will be:
-single use ever: until the next one is autcioned, it will consist in only one item worked for decarding.
-related to the previous statement, zeny sink might be even better for the simple fact of "being only 1" so people who wants to retrieve good cards/high-end cards from old & obsolete gears will bidfight for it.

About myself, i always tried my best to plan compounding ahead, maybe i would have only one item i may consider to decard to retrieve the card and compound it into another item, maybe just only it. Maybe.
I have no Muffler's devilings nor cotton shirt's GRs...

[Manifus]

I see having this exclusive to fairy auction the same problem of having it ridiculously expensive.

It only helps the extremely wealthy and new / other players will never have a shot at it unless any vets decide that they have everything they need as is.

I personally dislike exclusive content that not everyone will have equal access to, especially when it is potentially something as useful as this.

That would be like if the only way for you to enchant or slot gear was through FA. It would be a major game mechanic made too exclusive to be fair, and FA already has this issue occasionally. I would not want to see it exasperated even more so than it already is.

[Spire]

I see having this exclusive to fairy auction the same problem of having it ridiculously expensive.

It only helps the extremely wealthy and new / other players will never have a shot at it unless any vets decide that they have everything they need as is.

Well, it would be expensive yes. But you'd be sinking money from players who have most of the servers zeny. Honestly, I couldn't care less about someone decarding something. It doesn't effect my gameplay experience in any way.

And if it is presented in this way GR cards most likely wont be on the recieving end of de-carding, mvp cards would take the majority of the spots. That or wing gears would be 'fixed'.

As far as exclusive content, this is more or less the same argument that was made when the fairy auction first came out and Bloody bought almost literally everything from it. But if you look at it today, a lot of the items are fairly affordable if you save.

Will new players to the server be able to decard stuff, no they will not, I'm not going to sugar coat it. But if you look at all the end game additions, how many newer players can fight orcus? But, if they make a mistake carding something there will be hope in their minds for the future, as well as a goal to work toward.

Edit: I forgot to mention, if you did have an npc able to remove Cards, they should remove hatter cards from gear for free. I could see this being of serious benifit to newer players.

[Manifus]

As far as exclusive content, this is more or less the same argument that was made when the fairy auction first came out and Bloody bought almost literally everything from it. But if you look at it today, a lot of the items are fairly affordable if you save.

That is still the case, just replace Bloody with Roger or Evo. Only time he doesn't win the auction is when the item isn't worth winning. IE look at previous results and the items being sold. And even then, the price is only as expensive as the next highest bidder, which with a majority of the server being pretty... poor for lack of better terms, tends to remain on the lower side.

And yes, this is still something that I despise about the FA. Giving players exclusive content there is no other way of obtaining in game. I like my games allowing me to explore and gather all the nice things some time or another through in game means, but this defeats that entire principal with timed exclusives and no alternative means of obtaining some of these items.

Will new players to the server be able to decard stuff, no they will not, I'm not going to sugar coat it. But if you look at all the end game additions, how many newer players can fight orcus? But, if they make a mistake carding something there will be hope in their minds for the future, as well as a goal to work toward.

I basically had to start from scratch as I came back and played a class that I never mained before and I got into the whole orcus business within the first 2 months. So... yeah it's possible. I also hadn't ever done money farming to the degree I have now until after coming back, which I was able to do within the first few months as well. Don't count out new players. They can change the world.

[The Roger]

just replace Bloody with Roger or Evo. Only time he doesn't win the auction is when the item isn't worth winning. IE look at previous results and the items being sold.

Well, we work to build up buying power to be able to outbid others on those items...

[Spire]

I'm sorry if I upset you with my opinion Manifus. I'm trying to find a reasonable alternative for how this idea could be implemented. Without causing to much Unbalance, and use it as a tie in to help out with the economy.

To make an argument (Again I'm not trying to call anyone out or upset anyone.) About the FA, it was my understanding that buying a unique item from the fairy auction is not rights to have it exclusively, as the items should be added for the general player base in future updates. If that's changed since it was originally set up I apologise for my Naivete.

I agree with you on the point of the price tag associated with an npc. But it would be hell on earth for the GMs to create a way to balance decarding prices.

An alternative suggestion would be to have it cost materials to decard something (This is only an example list and should not be taken to seriously) instead of raw zeny, that way we have more of a market for newer players to help out with.

Example:
100 Blank cards
50 squid ink
20 flashlight
200 used iron plate

Obviously these wouldn't be the items required for the quest to remove a card, but it's a much better alternative to pure zeny.

As far as zeny and who has it goes. The people with the most zeny to spend here either are lucky, or patient. Or they've been dedicated members of the server.

Remember, I'm not a rich person on HeRO either, as much as I would like to use such a service, for now, I'm just hunting my cards again.

[Manifus]

Well, we work to build up buying power to be able to outbid others on those items...

I mean no offense by my previous statement. You have earned that which you have and I would be the last person to say anything different. Capitalism ho! and all that.

I'm sorry if I upset you with my opinion Manifus. I'm trying to find a reasonable alternative for how this idea could be implemented. Without causing to much Unbalance, and use it as a tie in to help out with the economy.

Not upset at all, just have experience and opinions on the matter that I wish to voice, nothing more.

To make an argument (Again I'm not trying to call anyone out or upset anyone.) About the FA, it was my understanding that buying a unique item from the fairy auction is not rights to have it exclusively, as the items should be added for the general player base in future updates. If that's changed since it was originally set up I apologise for my Naivete.

That was my understanding of it originally, however there are items in the FA that there is no other way to obtain through in-game means, recently included items such as enchanted armors that cannot be normally enchanted (both V4P and otherwise), "refined" items as in the refined / rental items that are much more powerful than normal versions and so on and so forth.

I do not take issue with items that are "timed" exclusives (although would prefer there be hard deadlines for stuff like this as who can ever be certain if and when an item will be introduced through in game means), as that is how I feel the FA should be used as a zeny sink. It is restricting items that can only be gotten through such means by such few people that make me uneasy. I have never been a fan when games arbitrarily section off content, or create exclusive content with no intent of that content being obtainable by the player base as a whole.

I agree with you on the point of the price tag associated with an npc. But it would be hell on earth for the GMs to create a way to balance decarding prices.

An alternative suggestion would be to have it cost materials to decard something (This is only an example list and should not be taken to seriously) instead of raw zeny, that way we have more of a market for newer players to help out with.

Example:
100 Blank cards
50 squid ink
20 flashlight
200 used iron plate

Obviously these wouldn't be the items required for the quest to remove a card, but it's a much better alternative to pure zeny.

As far as zeny and who has it goes. The people with the most zeny to spend here either are lucky, or patient. Or they've been dedicated members of the server.

This is the tricky part.
On the one hand, a price too high means it will only ever be used for the most exclusive of cards, ie MVP cards / Best of the best cards because of their rarity and power level.

On the other hand, too low and it creates a new market for outmoded gear with good cards in them.

I personally prefer somewhere in the middle, as it gives players flexibility to know that even if they use a card, when new gear comes out that out-modes previously existing gear, that they are not just SoL.

This also opens up design space for the staff as they are more freely open to push the boundaries with reduced backlash for such things, or if having to re-balancing any items / cards at a later date as those changes allow for some recourse by the players.

I don't believe cards and gear should be priced on a per item basis as that will only cause more hassle for the staff and less modular-ability for the code, making things far more complicated than they need to be, and much harder to develop.

I would support a quest be associated with the feature, although I would refrain from using items obtainable exclusively through seasonal items (ie Blank Cards) as I believe if a feature such as this is to be implemented, that all players have a shot at being able to use it regardless at when they join the server.

[Wyatt]

How about a quest to make a ' card removal voucher ' to be used at an npc?
Then have a bunch of basic farmed stuff like when doing the hatter quest. That'd save the effort of a tier-based cost, and still make people work for it, while being accessible to everyone.

:Edit: Could even have Allegiance based lore added to it, maybe something like, the winning Allegiance at ToH get a free card removal voucher at the end of the trial. That might encourage more of both light and dark sides to partake in the full event unto its finish.