Dubs vs Subs

[Sharpay]

First of all, there's nothing you can do about the fandom. Fans have nothing to do with the actual show, so please stop hating shows (ie Naruto) because you dislike their fandom.

Second of all, of course subs are better. You're seeing the show as the creator originally intended it to be seen.

The problem with dubs isn't just the lack of skill in voice acting (Japanese VAs go to school for that sort of thing, whereas American VAs can be just about anybody. Go watch a dubbed anime by 4Kids, and then watch a Disney Cartoon... I guarantee you the Disney Cartoon is better). The biggest problem with dubs is the changing of the sentences. First of all, you have to in order for what the character is saying to make sense in English. But then Americans who dub tend to change the humor to be more American, which in turn changes the character that's talking.

Like Edward Elric in Fullmetal Alchemist for instance. In Japan, it's not said that the moon is made of cheese, so Ed complains that he's hungry while staring at the sky. In America, Ed says "Moon old buddy,I wish you really were made of cheese." That makes him sound like an idiot, and it's not in his character to speak with inanimate objects.

Dub < Sub, but that's not to say there shouldn't be dubbed versions at all.

[Midori-sama]

"Moon old buddy,I wish you really were made of cheese."

That doesnt make him sound like an idiot you know..

And that an argument has been used before, Ill admit that not all dubs are epic but not all of them are bad, besides even if they do have subs they're sometimes changed to make more sense in english that can't be helped there are two different cultures here with two very different languages, something is bound to be different. To say that all dubs suck is just ignorant, have a little respect for our hard working american voice actors.

[Riverl]

well, there's one thing dub is superior to sub, truly
that is when I need footage for music video
in such case, sub only get in the way 3.3
But again, since they dont officially release any DVD of good animes here (and believe me when I say the dubbing here is worse than those in America), RAW is just as easy if not easier to find.

[Force-Attuned Krogoth]

I find it cute how many people believe that everything goes perfectly the first time. Sometimes things just don't go the way the original manga-ka expects. Maybe the seiyuu he expected is already booked. Maybe the budget or deadlines didn't allow for something. Sometimes he's not even in the room when they make the anime. There's no law that says the first draft is the best. To me, you have to look at it as a work of art. What thoughts and emotions does each audio track convey? Where do they match your interpretation of the story and the characters, and where do they stray? If you don't look at the whole picture, and automatically define perfection as the first thing you see, you're missing out on alot of the fun of being alive.

[Riverl]

The problem is, Japanese VAs, even though sometime not the one the author intended, are trained much more extensively than those normally chosen to be in a dub, who also happen to be, of course, not the person the author intended to take the roles too.
Also to consider: those with superb dub are normally successful show themselves, since there's just no point bring in a superb cast for a mediocre show.
And, if the anime original voices themselves was off, how much you think it will be even worse after the transition, where the (less trained?) VAs have to work on bridging the gap between two different culture and language? There would be something lost during such a transition, with a 90% if not 99% chance.

Long paragraph short: If it goes wrong the first time, what is the chance for a second time, by totally different people speaking totally different language, who dont really know what the author wanted the show to be, would do better



I stumbled upon a lot of good dub too, however up till today, I find none of them actually superior to the original. This is from the stand point of a non-native English user nor Japanese user, and actually came to contact with western cartoon and dub first; the reason I brought that up was because some will prefer the dub or sub/raw due to the voice being more familiar to what they hear daily (I know some think Japanese VAs are too high-pitch and unbearable) or what they come into contact first, this can affect how they feel about a show.


Yes, there are always those super rare exceptions, and if you choose to look only at the exception then, yes, anything goes.
You can take the chance, I dont really mind, its up to you after all.
Personally I'll take the higher chance for a better show, myself, and only double-check shows I liked how the most original version play out

Frankly, if the original went wrong, unless some reliable source tell me otherwise, I'll drop it altogether, no point wasting more time on the 1% (guesstimated, might be lower or slightly higher) chance of the dub being better


On a site note, "closest to the original" dont have to mean what the mangaka expected, but rather *how it was made*
Finally for some nit-picking: several animes was based not on manga, but visual novel, games, or a stand alone on its own, so I think we should use author instead of Mangaka

[Force-Attuned Krogoth]

Riverl Wrote:The problem is, Japanese VAs, even though sometime not the one the author intended, are trained much more extensively than those normally chosen to be in a dub, who also happen to be, of course, not the person the author intended to take the roles too.

This is an interesting point, the Japanese seiyuu historically have been more trained specifically to be voice actors than their American counterparts.??On the other hand, many American VAs come from a background of screen or stage acting.??Does this give them an advantage???Sometimes, but not always.

Quote:Also to consider: those with superb dub are normally successful show themselves, since there's just no point bring in a superb cast for a mediocre show.
And, if the anime original voices themselves was off, how much you think it will be even worse after the transition, where the (less trained?) VAs have to work on bridging the gap between two different culture and language? There would be something lost during such a transition, with a 90% if not 99% chance.

Yes, the successful shows typically bring a higher-budget cast.??That doesn't always imply quality, though.??Look at AnimEigo vs Funimation, in the earlier days of anime distribution.??There are plenty of examples where personal drive and connection with a story mean more than salary.
As far as bridging the culture gap, bear in mind the actors and actresses are not doing their own translations.??In the case of subs, neither is the original animation crew or seiyuu team.

Quote:I stumbled upon a lot of good dub too, however up till today, I find none of them actually superior to the original. This is from the stand point of a non-native English user nor Japanese user, and actually came to contact with western cartoon and dub first; the reason I brought that up was because some will prefer the dub or sub/raw due to the voice more familiar to what they hear daily (I know some think Japanese VAs are too high-pitch and unbearable) or what they come into contact first, this can affect how they feel about a show.

I can recommend a few that I feel have superior dubs, and several more that are too close to call.??The very top of my list is You're Under Arrest!??This is a supremely character-driven series, where the voice acting is absolutely critical to the development and overall success of the show.??In Japanese, the cast is individually talented, no doubt.??They match their characters well and show broad emotions.??In English, the entire cast functions as practically a single unit.??Even if they were less talented, less exactly rigorous to the demands of their single role, when combined they form a team that just feels like people who work together day in and day out.??Which is precisely the focus of the story, stimulus comes from within more often than without.??I highly recommend trying it, and I would encourage you to tell me what you think of both tracks.??At the very least we'll have something in common to compare.

Quote:Yes, there are always those super rare exceptions, and if you choose to look only at the exception then, yes, anything goes.
You can take the chance, I dont really mind, its up to you after all.
Personally I'll take the higher chance for a better show, myself, and only double-check shows I liked how the most original version play out

Ignoring the exceptions sounds like a bad idea to me.??If anything, we should be looking for and singling out the exceptions, in whatever we do.??Maybe it's just the scientist in me, but boundary conditions are always the most interesting.??After all, you don't keep watching the mediocre stuff you don't really like.??No, you delete it and move on to find something you truly enjoy.??Saying it's too much effort to attempt to listen to the dub version, when you're already seeking out and forming opinions of entire franchises seems arbitrary to me.

Quote:On a site note, "closest to the original" dont have to mean what the mangaka expected, but rather *how it was made*

So it doesn't matter where it comes from, the director of the animated adaptation is now defined as "correct"???I'm arguing we should take each as a separate case, because in any adaptation and any performance there will be interpretation.??The only alternative is stiff, wooden acting, and I don't think anyone here favors that.??I think it's worth giving everyone their chance; it doesn't take much and from time to time you will be surprised.

*edited to fix a couple formatting issues*

[Riverl]

We are not talking about correct or not.
Most of the time, the author dont have a say, or dont even want to, beside some suggestion, in term of choosing VA anyway, and you dont have a bar of standard to judge the correctness of it except saying it sounds good or bad, unless its those Visual novels or games with voice or already have some drama CD already.
No sense sweating over if its "correct or not" rather than "good or not", but that's another story.

Now for the originality we talked about...
Those show was Japanese animation, directed by Japanese, draw in Japanese manga/anime style, with character having Japanese accent and pun base on Japanese culture. And IMO, with culture product, the closer to how it was made/writen = better unless some major revamp occurred when it was translated/dub.

Quote:Ignoring the exceptions sounds like a bad idea to me.??If anything, we should be looking for and singling out the exceptions, in whatever we do.??Maybe it's just the scientist in me, but boundary conditions are always the most interesting.??After all, you don't keep watching the mediocre stuff you don't really like.??No, you delete it and move on to find something you truly enjoy.??Saying it's too much effort to attempt to listen to the dub version, when you're already seeking out and forming opinions of entire franchises seems arbitrary to me.

You give me the impression that you want to argue the general idea of dub vs sub with exceptions, so here is my respond, sorry if I got your intention wrong:

Exceptions are exceptions, they are gems you find on the sidewalk, and you dont rely on picking up gems on the sidewalk for steady in-come. They are also not what you can be used to judge a group or category as a whole. Acknowledging them is different from judging base on them, that's just like you see a pig can do some math calculation and you assume all the pigs can calculate. When you talk about a group, you talk about how that group generally fare, and only acknowledge exceptions, not treating them as a generic example. That is NOT scientific. Scientists research the exception extensively and try to find out the principle behind them, not using them for evaluation in these kind of comparison.


The point of the topic is Dub vs sub, and thus, Dub in general vs sub in general, not exceptional good dub vs exceptional bad Japanese voice acting.


When there are tons of anime I havent try out (while even more get released when a season start), and tons of stuff I need to do other than just staring at the screen, I cant rely on the rare chance that dub is better.
I do download dual version (call me pirating all you like, they never release those shows I downloaded here, ever, that's the situation, download or nothing), sometime dub, and listen to them, and yahoo if one was good, however I dont have time to actively seek out the ever-oh-so-rare cases where dub is superior.
Thus sub and Japanese VA is better than dub

[Force-Attuned Krogoth]

Riverl Wrote:When there are tons of anime I havent try out (while even more get released when a season start), and tons of stuff I need to do other than just staring at the screen, I cant rely on the rare chance that dub is better.
I do download dual version (call me pirating all you like, they never release those shows I downloaded here, ever, that's the situation, download or nothing), sometime dub, and listen to them, and yahoo if one was good, however I dont have time to actively seek out the ever-oh-so-rare cases where dub is superior.

I don't have the time to watch all the general cases that aren't very good in either language. I'm not saying that a good dub is the only thing I look for in a series; far from it, I have high standards overall. And, like you, most of the shows I watch never receive a dub at all. But there's been a general trend of improving dub quality since the 90s. Now, and even then, there are some shining examples of good American voice acting. And the more we support it, the more funding projects receive, the better the general case will become. Thus, in a small but very real way, what we think influences what comes next. If you believe, it will become true.

[Riverl]

Quote:I don't have the time to watch all the general cases that aren't very good in either language. I'm not saying that a good dub is the only thing I look for in a series; far from it, I have high standards overall

I beg to differ, how can you tell which is good and which isnt good before you watch it?
Review is one thing, how you feel is one thing, I dislike tons of high rated show, and like tons of low-rated shows.
Even harder to tell for newly released show
When Tengen Toppa aired only its first episode, how many knew it would be such a hit? How many wanted to drop Haruhi when its first ep was aired?
The point is, to find good anime to watch, you have to try them. And taking chance and waste even more time isnt what I want, so I stick with sub.

And we are talking solely about dub vs sub, no? high standard overall? Sorry, but what that has anything to do with this?
On a side note: talking about standard, If a show is interesting, I watch it, its bad or something tick me off, I drop it, I dont really have a standard, and its funnier for me that way, anime is for entertainment, not just art appreciation (its a plus if the anime has an artistic style though).

Quote:But there's been a general trend of improving dub quality since the 90s. Now, and even then, there are some shining examples of good American voice acting.

Quote:And the more we support it, the more funding projects receive, the better the general case will become.

That's true, however, we are not talking about supporting or not (and it wont improve the situation where I am anyway whether I support English dub or not) but which is better and which is more preferred.

Everything improve over time, the Japanese VA also improved a lot compare to before (image quality seem to have taken a dip in general though).

the point is, in comparison, right now they are not on par. Some dub might be ahead of time and actually were really nice, but not all.

Well, truth is, I think sub will always be preferred (unless the person in question cant stand the Japanese-ish voice to begin with, or severely lack an understanding of their pun and culture, then probably dub will be better), because, face it, anime wasnt created with American voice and culture in mind in the beginning (well, cartoon character dont name every moves and call them out in battle, for example, while this is mandatory for super robot show and hot-blooded type shounens series. the Japanese VA for Kamina in Tengen Toppa sound much more convincing when he yell "Giga Drill Breakaaaa~", even though generally the watchers accept the dub version as great), so dub isnt in a favorable situation even if the two casts were comparable, let alone the current situation, where a good dubbing cast who know what they are doing is so rare. It wasnt even a fair comparison to begin with.

[Force-Attuned Krogoth]

You do realize that you're implying the average show that's too new to be licensed is of a consistently higher quality than the dub of a licensed show? There's alot of terrible stuff that gets made, this has always been and will always be the case. One nice thing about licensing, it means enough people liked it that one of them was willing to throw money at the chance. I'm more inclined to watch a show that has been dubbed than one that hasn't, because it's a filter to remove some of the trash. Even if the dub turns out horrible and I switch to the original sound, the reasons it was sufficiently popular are clear.

As far as "cultural differences" I think it's pretty plain that has to be judged for each series. SOME shows are very punny and/or deal consciously or not with Japanese society. (Welcome to the NHK, Maison Ikkoku or Azumanga Daioh) SOME shows don't, and are in fact set in or analogous of foreign cultures, often America. (Baccano!, Hellsing or Monster) By your logic, the latter category would inherently be better in English. Although if we take your logic a step further, any subtitle scripts are inherently inferior. Do you turn them off?