Should guild tax cap be changed?

[Kulluminatii]

Ardney Wolf Wrote:Actually Street, you're a bit out of the loop. Both NE and Rev are regularly pulling large attendance for WoE these days. Average seems to be about 20 per side (NE, Rev, Behe) give or take 1/2 a party.

As far as the tax goes, rates are 5x base. You only need approval for WoE and that can be done pretty bloody quick. Don't see the need to spend GM time recoding it.

Additionally, I find it very hard to believe that the potential to tax members more would change anything in regard to people's desire or lack of desire to WoE. From personal observation, tax is pretty far down on the list of considerations people have when deciding to participate or not.

Just because only approval is needed for WoE, doesn't mean that e-call isn't as important. You can't sit there and tell me that e-call has not helped Behemoth in taking or keeping a castle. Also, I doubt much time would be spent changing a percent value for guild tax cap. That's just me guessing though, for all I know it may take hundreds of lines of code to implement.

I've heard reference to "the list" a few times in this thread, but no explanation of what this list is, care to explain? While I can agree with you the amount taxed won't be the top priority, I do believe it is a deciding factor.

When a person is considering making a guild, I would imagine they would think of the risks and benefits. Some may not have have lvl 99 characters to tax when making a guild, they would have to sacrifice some exp in order to level. If that is the case, then an increase in guild exp would help lessen the risk (risk being that the guild doesn't grow and folds...therefore gaining guild exp for nothing).

In response to what Adrillf posted, thanks for the history lesson about Behemoth. I wish I had friends IRL that wanted to play RO (damn WoW & Aion ), and I'm sure if everyone who wanted to make a guild had friends IRL to support them, then we would never even be talking about increasing the tax cap. Unfortunately, that is not the case with the majority of people on heRO.

[Yuriohs]

Hmm, itll be hard for behe but not really for the other guilds.


Its what happens when your a friend to everyone not that hard to ask for a screenshot in the last 30 min of WoE.

Also not hard to sneak into a castle with no precast because its emp is under attack.

But thats offtopic /swt.
And so is this.

And I gave you the history(my version atleast) because its more intresting that they came here in under 2 years, and have the most potential as a guild on HeRO.

Basically (Their stories > Yours by a long shot)

Lol Remember, it took Behe 2 YEARS for it to come up.
How long is it taking revenga? /hmm

[Adrillf]

If Revenga is moving so fast that they're going faster than us I can't wait. I love challenging WoE's and encourage them to keep going at that speed and keep being inovative with their tactics because unlike other people, we enjoy it when people come out with new tactics and new ideas.

As for the topic of guilds starting and staying together, it's a sad fact but most of the time you're going to need that friendship there to keep the guild together. It works ocasionally that random online friends can work it out, but I personally think that previous freindships are the core of a strong guild. And if a person doesn't feel like they are welcomed into a guild no matter if it's a guild of 3 people or a big guild, they're not going to stay and WoE. The challenge to get people to WoE more is not to make guilds easier to level but is instead a challenge to guild leaders to make their guildmates happy and want to WoE. If you don't have that desire from the guild people will stop WoE-ing. And that's not something rates can fix.

[Kulluminatii]

Adrillf Wrote:The challenge to get people to WoE more is not to make guilds easier to level but is instead a challenge to guild leaders to make their guildmates happy and want to WoE. If you don't have that desire from the guild people will stop WoE-ing. And that's not something rates can fix.

I would imagine being able to prep a guild for WoE in a good amount of time will make people want to WoE. Let say a person is not as lucky as Behe is when forming a guild and is going solo, if it takes too long to "WoE-ready" the guild, people will leave.

I agree with you that you need to have that desire to lead a guild, no matter what the rates are. If the person doesn't have that drive, the increased rates probably wont help him/her much. But if he does, the increased rates will help him/her significantly. The guild could then move on to gearing themselves and will be able to provide a challenge to the existing "big guilds" sooner.

[Yuriohs]

Do you think Arman doesn't know that? or anyone who voted for the tax.
Your acting like they dont know about how to keep friends, like he doesn't know about expectations of people in a guild.

We know that rates cannot fix they way guilds work in terms of relationships, atleast I know a few of us do. Thats not what I think arman is trying to fix with rates.

I think what he's saying is guilds that don't have high level friends, and don't have that many people geared / don't have many people period that want to WoE, that want to get their name out their need this kind of tax inorder to speed up the process in getting things like ecall and different extensions.

I understand that Approval is what you need for WoE but having what you need isn't always enough, especially in a WoE where your facing vets who have pretty hax gears and have floated around hax gears.

And Afrilf lol, I won't get into what you were trying to say with unlike other people not enjoying tactics, its not the thread for that, we can keep that in pms if you want.

[Ardney Wolf]

Kulluminatii Wrote:I've heard reference to "the list" a few times in this thread, but no explanation of what this list is, care to explain?

Sure thing. When interviewing people for guild memership (here and elsewhere) the typical questions they have in relation to WoE are 'When is it?', 'What classes are needed?', 'Can I use X build or will I need to switch to Y?', 'What if I can't attend?', 'Am I too low level/dont have proper gear?' and so on. Typically, the only time tax enters into that list is if they're asking if your guild imposes a mandatory tax. In that scenario, I've found that lower = better

In regards to your statement about guild skills beyond approval, while recall is nice, it's not by any means mandatory. I've run guilds on other servers before and managed to compete quite effectively without it. When it finally comes it's nice, but it's certainly possible to do without.

Regarding the time it would take to make the change, I don't know exactly either. But from personal experience, sometimes seemingly small changes to established systems can end up being a lot more work than is originally anticipated.

To clarify, I'm not violently opposed to this. If it's decided that heRO staff want to spend time altering it, then so be it. Personally, I prefer the prioritization of implementing new content (things we do not have or cannot do) over ease of use modifications to things we already have (i.e. guild tax).

You asked for reasons and these are mine.

[edit]Neglected to mention that I still do not believe that this change, if implemented, would have the effect you think it would. I have never seen a person join or refuse to join, make or opt not to make a guild because they could not tax or be taxed more. There are simply far more important things than guild exp to consider in those decisions.

[mahawirasd]

Arman seemed to not read my post on purpose jk

anyway, another point is: tax default is 50% everywhere, so for those "older" players who slaved their way to get more people in their guild (even if it's "just" a social guild) through blood and sweat don't you think this would really be unfair to them?
similar to how making a script to keep on reducing the points of rankers -be it TK/alche/BS- would mean we are unappreciative of their previous efforts...

personally i don't think that's a world view legacy i would like to hand down...


-w-

[Kulluminatii]

Oh no, I read it, I just thought I might as well skip over someone's arguments too, jk of course, guess I forgot to reply to it...oh well, I'll do it now .

mahawirasd Wrote:tbh i feel the tax limit is set as such as to set an initial "entrance fee" of sorts to prove that X guild is worthy to compete in WOE. Certainly if you're serious about making a guild for WOE and is in it for the long run (which is definitely what WOE is imho -> the treasure drops ain't that /slur; as opposed to the "promise" or "hope" to gather up god item mats and someday. Maybe someday. Just MAYBE someday to get all the mats and actually get to make a god item) some grinding or paying off champs to slave tax shouldn't be that hard to do?

PS: there might also be the aspect of brandishing (for lack of a better expression) e-Penises through WOE, but still imho you should first prove yourself worthy to even try to brandish it, no?

Who has the right to say which guild is "worthy" to compete in WoE and which is not? If you believe the "entrance fee"/the right to WoE is the tax limit, then I would say that the "entrance fee" is different for every guild. When multiple people open a guild, I guess you could say the "entrance fee" is made easier because they all can contribute "less" and still end up with more (or go for straight up 50% tax if they so wish) whereas a person who opens a guild by himself (or with very few people) has a harder "entrance fee".

The response to the second part I bolded I already gave in the other thread (for the most part),

Quote:hiring a 99 is a possible option for up and coming guilds. But how many 99s are out there willing to level someone's else guild that could very well become a threat to them in the near future?

Also, how many people do you see actively offering guild leveling services at the moment. I believe Herman offered his for free to social guilds, but we aren't talking about social guilds now are we?

Now onto your most recent post...

mahawirasd Wrote:anyway, another point is: tax default is 50% everywhere, so for those "older" players who slaved their way to get more people in their guild (even if it's "just" a social guild) through blood and sweat don't you think this would really be unfair to them?
similar to how making a script to keep on reducing the points of rankers -be it TK/alche/BS- would mean we are unappreciative of their previous efforts...

I doubt the tax is set to 50% everywhere, and honestly, you can't compare heRO to any other server, and vice versa. In another server where WoE may be thriving, the guild tax is most likely 50%; however, it is very possible that in a server where WoE isn't as well off the rate is higher then 50%.

Now to answer the bolded part. I believe its hard to compare the present to the past, and then to judge fairness on top of that is unfair in itself. This update won't take away anything from the guilds that are already fairly well leveled, and while some may view it as "unfair" that they had to level with a 50% cap limit instead of a 100%, it's not going to harm them in any way.

Also, a point I remember bringing up before when asked a similar question about "fairness" - Was it fair that the "older players" had a easier chance to get a GR/Angeling than the players joining heRO today? One could argue that it was done to prevent possible problems occurring in heRO's future. With that being said, is the topic we are discussing right now any different?



I don't have much time left for today, but I will try to respond to Ardney's post as well. Don't want him getting angry that I skipped over his post which seems fairly well thought out .

Ardney Wolf Wrote:(1.) Typically, the only time tax enters into that list is if they're asking if your guild imposes a mandatory tax. In that scenario, I've found that lower = better

In regards to your statement about guild skills beyond approval, while recall is nice, it's not by any means mandatory. I've run guilds on (2.) other servers before and managed to compete quite effectively without it. When it finally comes it's nice, but it's certainly possible to do without.

To clarify, I'm not violently opposed to this. If it's decided that heRO staff want to spend time altering it, then so be it.(3.) Personally, I prefer the prioritization of implementing new content (things we do not have or cannot do) over ease of use modifications to things we already have (i.e. guild tax).

You asked for reasons and these are mine.

[edit]Neglected to mention that I still do not believe that this change, if implemented, would have the effect you think it would. (4.) I have never seen a person join or refuse to join, make or opt not to make a guild because they could not tax or be taxed more. There are simply far more important things than guild exp to consider in those decisions.

I've decided to number what I am referring to from now on in hopes of shortening down my essay-like responses.

1. I think I may have been misleading or may have failed to explain what my point is clearly. When a guild is formed, they would be foolish to try and recruit without at least a few guild levels under them. This process takes place well before "the list" appears. I believe in heRO as we know it today, you cant expect to pass a mandatory tax and expect people to stay long if you don't do the main leveling yourself. I feel like I still haven't gotten the point I wanted to get across, so hopefully tomorrow with a "fresh mind" I can edit this response with something better.

2. The key phrase being "other servers." In this server, with only 2 castles and 3 guilds competing, not having e-call is severely reducing your chances of coming away with a castle by the time WoE is over.

3. I personally prefer fixes to bugs & problems first before any new content is added .

4. The first thought that comes to a person's mind when making a guild isn't necessarily "damn I wish I could tax myself more" but more along the lines of "can I really pull this off?". With that in mind, I would tend to believe a increased tax cap will do nothing but help the person in reaching his/her goals with the guild. Like I have stated in my earlier response, a person who is determined to make his guild successful will do so no matter what, that I believe we all can agree with; however, if the person could have the option to level the guild faster so he can focus his attention on gearing himself & his guildies to prepare to fight "the big 3"...why would he say no?


Again, I'm sorry if my responses seem scattered (MUST GET SLEEP ). I tried my best to give answers to the questions that were asked, and if I was not able to, please feel free to further question me and I'll definitely be more clear next time around.

[Matrim Cauthon Jr]

Kulluminatii Wrote:Also, how many people do you see actively offering guild leveling services at the moment. I believe Herman offered his for free to social guilds, but we aren't talking about social guilds now are we?

Any chance Herman could help get Fires Of Heaven to level 11 or so? We're 9 atm and steadily grinding towards 10.

[Kulluminatii]

Matrim Cauthon Jr Wrote:

Kulluminatii Wrote:Also, how many people do you see actively offering guild leveling services at the moment. I believe Herman offered his for free to social guilds, but we aren't talking about social guilds now are we?

Any chance Herman could help get Fires Of Heaven to level 11 or so? We're 9 atm and steadily grinding towards 10.

No idea, would have to ask him. Was trying to look for his thread so I could link you...but I can't find it . I'm pretty sure it was Herman who was offering it...although I can't say I'm positive. Anyways I'm off to bed, good luck with leveling your guild Matrim.