Add WSS to Bee wing!

[azurerogue]

Define zeny sink. The whole point of one is to remove zeny from the economy. Adding WSS to bee wings would not REMOVE zeny from the economy, it would only (POSSIBLY) slow down the rate at which zeny is introduced (interestingly, from the same item-generator). But it's not guarantee. Adding WSS is not a zeny sink - simply a zeny manipulator.

[Seth~]

azurerogue Wrote:Define zeny sink. The whole point of one is to remove zeny from the economy. Adding WSS to bee wings would not REMOVE zeny from the economy, it would only (POSSIBLY) slow down the rate at which zeny is introduced (interestingly, from the same item-generator). But it's not guarantee. Adding WSS is not a zeny sink - simply a zeny manipulator.

+1 I guess you can say it like that.

I also agree the zeny zink is very iffy since it is reliable on the usage of the wws in the bee wings option. But if anyone is to support the continued exclusion of the wws from the bee wings. Please explain your reasoning like ChaosPrince has done for the inclusion of wws in the bee wings.

ChaosPrince Wrote:Again: this update will:
-Increase survivability in WoE = increased participation (aka noobs will stick arround);
-Enhance economy in different ways (Zeny sink+card values);
-Update ranked brewer

And the first and last arguments =/= lazy.
You still have to farm them, you still need to work for them. Furthermore, I don't see any problem related to "easiness". Matter of fact, WSS is vended at 1600~2000z each. I can farm, let's say 3000, cheese in a few clicks. OC sell them to NPCs and Buy the WSS off the players. The end result will be the same. Instead of adding 4.8 million ~ 6 million to the market, I will get 3000 WSS instead, and buy 3000 White pots (900z each) + materiel to brew Slim pots. (Zeny Sink vs Zeny pile up).

So extra argument:
-Zeny sinking!!!

[ChaosPrince]

Although Seth is asking for Azure to explain his position, I will give more detail on "Zeny sink"
200 White pots with discount lvl 10 = 182 000z
200 Medicine bolw = 1600z
200 empty test tube = 600~1000z

Again, I have not met a Brewer who can 100% for slim whites.
~80% (without full party)
~93% (with full party/gear/food/pet/MC, ETC).
SOME White pots + WSS + Test tube + Medicine bowl will POP.

Furthermore: HOW many Slim whites you use in WoE? How many white do you burn in BG? (since they are more available, people might even use them for luring/mvping). EVERYTIME someone use 1 slim white pot, they burn: (White pot 920z+WSS 1500z+Medicne bowl 8z+empty test tune 3z + the failed pots average)

Multiply that number by all the people who pots...

Economics 101
Then, zeny sink can also be defined as loss in value, less profit:
When the offer is greater than the demand, the price will shrink. When the demand is high but the offer is low, the price will skyrocket.
If you tell me the PvMers will use bee wings to farm WSS and sell it to players (like they do currently) instead of selling them for 1500~2000z each, we might be looking at 1000z~ each since the offers "MIGHT" increase. Thus, less zeny entering in the market without "stopping it"


On the other hand, WoE:
Potting -> increase survivability -> New people will feel LESS overwhelmed by the vets -> Increased competition -> increase of ressource spending in order to kill (AD+EDP+Traps+Blues, berry, WHATEVER you use) -> zeny sink.

You guys can say this is my "interpretation" or prediction, or all this might simply not happen. However, if we don't try it, how will we know? The GMs did implement the MVP death record (server broadcast) for 2 months. Why don't we try the same thing, add it for a moment, and see if it works, remove it if I am wrong.

-CP-

To those who royally objects to this proposition, I feel like:
1. You don't want the noobs to live.
2. You want them to be easy to kill, saving you lots of troubles.
3. You know you will loose your rank in /alchemist, cause you are not brewing.

[azurerogue]

All 3 conclusions fail to take into account that "newbs" will NOT benefit greatly from any addition to Bee Wings compared to veterans. Newbs don't generally have Bee Wings, and people who already spend time farming for WoE will not find it onerous to wear Bee Wings while doing so. New players generally might. So for each WSS you're allowing "newbs" to gather, veterans can easily gather them too. What does this mean?

1. Easy survivability goes both ways - and more potions provides a greater benefit to those with better gear (more damage reduction = more effective hit points).

2. See above.

3. Easier gathering for brewing is WAY more likely to benefit those already on the list who are still active. Those who aren't active aren't the ones commenting on this (since they're not playing anymore).

I'll post another with my details about zeny sink later. Tired.

[Seth~]

azurerogue Wrote:1. Easy survivability goes both ways - and more potions provides a greater benefit to those with better gear (more damage reduction = more effective hit points).

2. See above.

3. Easier gathering for brewing is WAY more likely to benefit those already on the list who are still active. Those who aren't active aren't the ones commenting on this (since they're not playing anymore).

1:True. btw ChaosPrince at what level would a new player start using slim whites. Unless obviously provided by guild.

2:?

3:Agreed. Why is this a bad thing? Long ago when the /alchemist ranking was stagnant, more wws would have helped me go up faster(provided the bee wings was there as a quest and I completed it). The status quo favours more old ranked players that are inactive to remain there. In this case change is good. The so called 2 spot its more a challenge to beat/kick than to remove him.

*btw. for ChaosPrince and azurerogue who is probally in woe atm. I left cd and made the post right afterward. woe is just that exciting, expensive. *edited*

[Snowhawk]

I thought Zeny Sinks were meant to take all our stagant money rotting in the Banker's pockets away from general use.??How does cycling it into the market count as a Zeny Sink???Increasing a Marketed item lowers the cost meaning I have more money to spend on more items since they are cheaper and make less money from said items as the price has gone down.

If I just hunt for materials to supply brewers then I make less now than I could have when they weren't available through an extra item.??While it changes the market on specific items, I fail to see how it is a sink to take away my money like various quests are, the fairy auction, and nobility.

Recycling currency in the form of items to make an more expensive item to sell to get the money back isn't really sinking my zeny much.

Should sell my rotting wss' now before this gets added like stems XD

EDIT: Vets benefit better from slim whites than newbs do. The discouragement would still exist and with vets having even more slim whites than they normally do, that would further discourage competition from newer people. Vets always benefit more than someone new when it comes to changes that aren't specifically for new players like the low leveled EXP gear.

[mahawirasd]

a tad non sequitur, but i think ppl are forgetting the important implication of offering brewing components in bee wings - offering said items MAY hopefully entice newbies or farmer or whoever to select brewing components rather than other "non-essential" items which they will only sell to NPCs for zeny.
IF this scenario does happen, then it will not only reduce the inflationary potential of ppl farming items to be sold for zeny to npcs, it will also increase intra-player trade.

Furthermore, even if only dedicated brewers actually benefit, it will still mean less zeny introduced to the player base (due to the aforementioned scenario where brewers don't use bee wings to get other zeny-items while farming bathory).


W

[ChaosPrince]

+1 to that Mahawirasd, I didn't even see it that way!

[Snowhawk]

It really wouldn't stop people from farming to NPC items. That's an individual decision and opening more selling options increases NPC sellable items. People can still NPC WSS if they have no need for it. Which honestly unless you are a verteran with an Alchemist Character or know an alchemist character you are going to either Sell it to an NPC or sell it to another player.

Considering I've had shops opened and nothing was bought from them within a three day period I'd sell WSS to an NPC because they are useless to me and I want more Zeny. There are better things to sell, but I get a good amount and they rot in my bank for a long time and I get tired of seeing them there.

Again, it serves less benefit to new players or newb WoE players as Vets get more, use less and benefit from it greatly. It isn't really a Zeny Sink as it increases Zeny flow into the market. Some it sinks Zeny into but they aren't paying as much per due to increased number in the market and those that only hunt to sell are making less per item while increasing their own zeny to be used in sinks later.

As a Zeny sink this is fairly poor. As an attempt to increase others to come into the WoE play, it completely fails as Vets get better support with this. If you try to look at it for the bragging rights of being ranked, Rankers already can increase their rank if they wanted to. This would increase their chances of moving up but not by a whole lot as there isn't any real incentive to rank up.

Only reason to add WSS is because you are lazy and don't want to go hunt them from their normal monsters which is already fairly easy.

[Seth~]

@Snowhawk lazyness, helps vets more, other stuff.

Lets discuss my pricing formula for the slim white potions.

900z(white potion)+1500z(wws)+fail rate estimate+vending tax. Break even should be around 3000z. To be safe. (2400*1.25=3000).

Encourages activity from vets/other in woe (hopefully):
Lets say wws drops to 1000z. Break even rate should fall to 2400. Laziness if you imply. I firmly believe demand far outstrips supply. Given this estimate if you add competition aka more success and/or lower input cost you can be looking at a price range of at most 3k vending more regularly.

Benefit for newbs:
If you bring the newb(1 or less trans players). They will be looking at alternative ways to make zeny wws in bee wings might become a attractive quest. Thus my point is here more newbs would be encourage to farm some wws for brewers/guilds for a starter boost to get better gears ect. Yes newbs can do other things to do the same. However in a smaller server like ours it is my firm believe that variety is a key ingredient to have a healthy flow of zeny. Thus it is variety that will helps newbs to gain more zeny/gears/items.

.....But they can always just do the cheese. Yes they can but they probably will gain more benefit by chatting to players like gears/more zeny/contacts/guild help. That would be harder to come by on the open market otherwise.????

Conclusion:
Inter-player trade should be the key important part here as mahawirasd pointed out. Activity of any sort should encourage more active players. Zeny zink is small but there. Brewer will most likely benefit, yes and more zeny will be in-circulation emanating from brewers. More active /alchemist. more potions on vend. Heck if white herbs is vending below white potion cost this can also benefit newbs and the economy.

PS. imo the economy more activity = SUCCESS more activity.??