Add WSS to Bee wing!

[azurerogue]

If inter-player trade is so important then we should just remove Bee Wings rather than continuing to add more and more drops to them, no?

[Snowhawk]

Also, nothing guarantees any change to how people play or effects on the economy. A lot of what I've seen in here popped up for why Stems should be added. Stems were added. Nothing happened.

If they don't want to WoE, they aren't going to. Especially vet players that have been on the server for as long as I have that don't WoE simply because we either find it boring or just don't like it. The only way to increase WoE activity is to find people that are interested in it.

If you want to do this for Economy, there isn't much guarantee that it will work out as planned either. Like I said, Stems were added, not much changed. I still can't sell as often as I like, but price wise didn't look like it took a huge hit.

[Seth~]

Snowhawk Wrote:Also, nothing guarantees any change to how people play or effects on the economy. A lot of what I've seen in here popped up for why Stems should be added. Stems were added. Nothing happened.

Stems where added it had an effect. My missions I post in pront gets filled much more faster. The price didnt drop cause it is already low.

Snowhawk Wrote:If they don't want to WoE, they aren't going to. Especially vet players that have been on the server for as long as I have that don't WoE simply because we either find it boring or just don't like it. The only way to increase WoE activity is to find people that are interested in it.

So adding wws will have no significant effect (maybe) why the resistance to adding it? Economics is not a exact science (go look at usa, japan, europe) why are you guys so afraid of trying it? Stems supply shot up recently, the price went down maybe a 100-400z. If any the price should stabilise until the farmers gets bored or move on.??

azurerogue Wrote:If inter-player trade is so important then we should just remove Bee Wings rather than continuing to add more and more drops to them, no?

lol. So you suggest to satisfy my argument you provocatively suggest that I want wws to be a common drop like zargon (to increase inter-player trade). So did you vote no for bee wings or want it removed why?

Seriously I am trying to suggest possible advantages for wws in bee wings, all that is posed as a counter argument is holes in our theory for why it is a good idea. Granted. You/Some of you guys said it might be a insignificant impact as a whole then why is it so heavily resisted? Maybe the benefit of the few might outweigh the benefit of the many(who is the many?). More work for GM's oops why is this a problem variety should be above all encouraged yes?

post edit grammar. Why was the bee wings added? To supplement the dodgy supply and thus have a stabilising effect on the prices listed in the bee wing items, to increase zeny rewards for said players. If this is right then why is wws in bee wings so heavily resisted???

[Snowhawk]

Because the reason for adding them changes every few posts. Its at the point that the argue for will change any time there is any resistance at all. It was originally stated to be a boost for WoE. No it won't. Its a waste of time to go back in and recode the wings for something like that.

Wings weren't for Alchemists only either. Everyone wants to add in Alchemy specific items because they don't want to hunt for their own ingredients and then try to pawn off that its good for the server over all when it isn't. Why give more work to the already overworked GMs especially something as petty as this?

All the advantages listed aren't really advantages. I hunt items and sell them. That's all I do. I'd rather more NPC sellable items in wings than something like this like how the wings used to be.

[Ultima_Pi]

Seth~ Wrote:You/Some of you guys said it might be a insignificant impact as a whole then why is it so heavily resisted? Maybe the benefit of the few might outweigh the benefit of the many(who is the many?). More work for GM's oops why is this a problem variety should be above all encouraged yes?

Why add it if it's not going to do anything?

ChaosPrince Wrote:Reasons for adding Witch Starsand [make it drop at the same rate than cheese and Orbs(ID:1061) to Bee wing's list:
1. Promotes WoE (allow people to make pots);
2. Keep /alchemist up to date. (There are a couple of inactive/quit ranked brewers on the server);
3. Demand-Offer, price of WSS will go down (so it won't be worth anymore than 1.5k)
4. Good for economy (1 White pot from NPC is 900z (with discount), and brewing condensed White potions isn't 100% (I havn't seen 100% on HeRO yet). [GREAT ZENY SINK].

First off, stop focusing on newbs. While it's all well and good, you need to focus on the whole server. For the sake of argument, we'll make a few assumptions:

newbs + vets = server
newbs and vets have Bee Wings
newbs and vets are able to farm WSS at comparable rates (WSS/hour)

1. No, it doesn't promote WoE. Like you said somewhere, Condensed Whites are used elsewhere, like MvPing. At best, it promotes people asking brewers to make pots, who may or may not charge for brewing services. Alternatively, it promotes people making brewer chars.

2. Who cares. If you're really that desperate to change the ranking, go make your own and get on the list. That'll show you how much effort went into even getting on those lists.

3. Because the entire server benefits from the Bee Wings mod, the vets get WWS easier, and have no need to buy them from newbs (excluding sheer laziness). At worst, the price will stagnate and nobody will even bother selling because nobody is buying. At best, everyone will make their own brewer, and prices will actually go up, forcing more zeny to change hands.

4. Only in best case scenario will this sink out zeny. Most people are betting on average case, where prices remain consistent with whatever the current price is.

[Seth~]

So your argument boils down to the GM do not need more work. That is very GM like biased. Thus lets all bother GM less with things that should be in the bee wings (mind you all items from across the character classes) that pops up in a skill requirement. The bee wings was created to supplement this demand yes? Why is a much more broader list not covered. Sure if an item is not farmed via the bee wings remove it.Stems helped for me at least in bee wings wws will most likely do to. Fabric was removed recently [i think-mine is still on alcohol] the price nearly doubled).

GM's is there to make a wonderful blissful server within their powers? Imo Creators gets the short end of the stick by far.

Snowhawk Wrote:Everyone wants to add in Alchemy specific items because they don't want to hunt for their own ingredients and then try to pawn off that its good for the server over all when it isn't. Why give more work to the already overworked GMs especially something as petty as this?

Lazy is a synonymy for this is getting boring. aka less activity.????

Snowhawk Wrote:All the advantages listed aren't really advantages

By simply stating that something is not proven is not proving it. You just attacking the issue for the sake of the status quo. By all means why dont you list why all the various items is listed in the current bee wing list. Why is this list not much broader? Is this not the central question???

Post edit

Potentially dropping prices (reliant on ppl using this option) if it drops like expected. It will be good for pvp based activities[good in the sense of less expensive thus more encouraging to be more survivable], all of which encourages activity (small or large it is still there).
Prices may not drop, yes true but supply should increase (small or large it is still there). Oversupply can also break the economy? I am sure if that arises the drop rate will be modified. (bee wings the effect should not be breakneck unbalancing thus too much items generated or too little - aka gm control)

@Ultima_Pi (that post came while I did this post xD)
The no effect scenario is a possibility but not a proven fact as it is claimed by skeptics that argue it is unnecessary work for GM's.

The issue on lazy vets that do not buy from newbs. I think this is flawed since you assume that newbs can not vend (@ws is very useful) I at least check my interest items regularly. Vets will most likely be more lazy farming wws with oversupply of it in the market. Oversupply fixes it self in the long run due to boredom/loss of potential income elsewhere generated.?

Adding it creates more work for GM's - yes as long as you say there is no point in adding it. The GM(s) can add it one day in 2070. All the arguments thus far attack the basic idea (imo) behind bee wings, with wws exclusion. Its anti-brewer, why is that acceptable???

[Kiwis]

Short opinion. (I am against this)
Most of people supporting I ASSUME would have ranked creators/mvp a lot. No offense but I see this idea to be for their own benefits. Saying it would support the server by encouraging woe makes no sense as people woe depending on their timezone. If they can, they'd most likely do so regardless of having supplies (if they have a regularly woe-ing guild).
Also, this might be important.
Getting ranked as a brewer should be more challenging.
If the prices of wss would be to reduce, brewing will much more easier this way and getting to the top rankings is nothing.

[Seth~]

Kiwis Wrote:. Saying it would support the server by encouraging woe makes no sense as people woe depending on their timezone. If they can, they'd most likely do so regardless of having supplies (if they have a regularly woe-ing guild).

imo WoE is a complicated mess, to so called improve anything, but the issue of surviving or more competitiveness in pvp like places. Thus would be promoting pvp like places aka making it more of a challenge. I do not understand why a reduction in prices of one of the healing items used in pvp/pvm would not promote said activity.

Kiwis Wrote:Getting ranked as a brewer should be more challenging.If the prices of wss would be to reduce, brewing will much more easier this way and getting to the top rankings is nothing.

The lowest ranked players has at least 200k points. The more safe area is 400k+ Yes this was fueled by guild need and profit. The top 2 spots one is inactive the other is brewing for a guild with god items (i think). Why would a more active ranking list be bad?

Scenario 1 drop in the price of wws and slim whites: (the few(brewers) benefit and the many(rest) have lower prices & supply?).
Scenario 2 stagnation in prices of wws and slim whites with slightly more supply: This is a unlikely scenario imo. However if so at least wws can be more easily farmed.

The best argument so far has been the /alchemist ranking (might) be more easily reached. With time the 200k rankers will have to work harder to remain in the ranking. Why is this so bad? ppl opposing this claim our motivation behind it is lacking, the same goes for the counter argument against including wws in bee wings.

[ChaosPrince]

Kiwis Wrote:Short opinion. (I am against this)
Most of people supporting I ASSUME would have ranked creators/mvp a lot. No offense but I see this idea to be for their own benefits. Saying it would support the server by encouraging woe makes no sense as people woe depending on their timezone. If they can, they'd most likely do so regardless of having supplies (if they have a regularly woe-ing guild).
Also, this might be important.
Getting ranked as a brewer should be more challenging.
If the prices of wss would be to reduce, brewing will much more easier this way and getting to the top rankings is nothing.

RO is nearly 10 years old... although they came in with patch/customs/new dungeones etc, it is STILL a DECADE old...

It doesn't only benefit the people who WOE/MVP...
Nearly everything has been explored... all you have to do is COPY!!! (aka If I use WSS for an "X" thing, you CAN too) You lack of idea? go Youtube for new tricks. Seriously... who's really lazy?

For all those who are bashing at this idea, you should simply say: REMOVE BEE WINGS.
-Immortal heart, alcohol, stems, webs, karvo, bee sting, venom canin, etc are all class specific.
-ONLY: cooking kit, cheese and orbs aren't. And WSS falls into this category. Seriously... who DOESN'T need pot?!

[Gojira]

I don't, they're sold at npcs!