Seth~ Wrote:So I am ignoring your arguments lemme copy paste ares where you lack response or adding wss to bw was proved to be not that negative. If a Gm closes this thread it would not be to my flame like posts, I am trying my best not to flame. anyways.
A grand List of my arguments for wss inclusion into bw
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Seth~ Wrote:Seth~ Wrote:Merellis Wrote:Witched Starsands are not used in a ton of items, they're used in ONE, count it with me now, ONE item. So this argument doesn't work either, along with the lack of supply in vendors, and the pricing of them. None of those arguments work.
Ok so wss is not used in a ton of skills. Ok lets count: one slim white twilight, 2, 3 .... this can go on a while. The TON is in the number of items that it makes in comparison to other items in bee wings.??your sarcasm. Plz elaborate where you proof me wrong.
So here I argue that wss is used more in comparison to other skills since more items can/is created in comparison to other skills. aka more supply can easily be absorbed into the system. Thus that argument needs a reply.
Okay lets say they're added to Bee Wings. What's the formula for the WSS dropping? Are they based on monster level or just a per kill? (Given that most items added have it on a per monster level I would say it's definitely that one.) That means that killing Bathory's does not actually use the Bee Wings to the best they can be, especially if you're just killing one at a time. You'd still be getting your WSS per kill but the Bee Wings would not be adding much to that number at all. In order to suddenly use the wings at a high effective rate you would need to go to Juperous, Hodremlins, Magma Dungeon 02, and other places where you can mob monsters above Level 60.
Seth~ Wrote:Seth~ Wrote:Merellis Wrote:100% drop rate, easy to kill monsters, maps with a high amount of them
Agreed they do have a 100% drop rate like many other items in the bw, easy to kill monsters like many other items in the bw, maps with a high amount of them < assuming bathories like many other items in the bw.
So here it is argued that wss is dropped from 2 monsters, previously it was pointed out by me & other ppl (I can draw the quote if desired) that the best place to farm wss is at bathory. So easy to drop is then further attacked since wss requires a item to enter and a lot of warping & walking. Lastly the map contains warps that automatically kicks you out of the map. Thus that argument needs a reply.??
You're warping that much and land on another Warp Portal that kicks you out? Hilarious!
As for the item that gets you into the Underground? Heaven forbid that you have to go kill a couple Clock Tower Managers or Elders.
There's walking involved in a dungeon? THE HORROR THE HORROR! D:
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Seth~ Wrote:Seth~ Wrote:Merellis Wrote:there is no reason to add them to Bee Wings, they're easy to farm and can be accumulated at a frightening speed, all of your arguments have been countered
They are easy to farm just like many other items in bw, some can even be bought from npc's. They can just as easily accumulate fast at frighting speed, especially the ones from a npc.
This freighting speed that wss can be accumulated, now then if you argue that justify wss exclusion against the inclusion of these items: blue gemstone, empty bottle, green live, red blood, Professional Cooking Kit, red gemstone, Royal Cooking Kit, Wind of Verdure, Yellow Gemstone.
Blue Gemstones are bought from NPC's and should never have made it on to the Wings.
Empty Bottles are also dropped at a high rate from other monsters, a number of them easy to kill and at least one of them that spawns at an entrance to a dungeon. So they make no sense being on there.
Green Live has a low drop rate so I can see these being on here or being part of a piece of equipment that caters directly to hunting down elemental stones and the like.
Red Blood has a low drop rate as well unless you're killing Red Mushrooms, which is funny because Creators can make Red Mushrooms. So these fit on here due to low drop rate, unless you're already a creator.
Professional Cooking Kits have a low drop rate as well, so these can work for an item that's supposed to give you some assistance in farming.
Red Gemstone has Driller for a 100% drop, and also drops Yellow Gemstones so a 2 for 1 deal happening there for Profs!
Royal Cooking Kits have a low drop rate, though the highest is in Jupe where Sins and SinX's are already farming anyway, so make of that what you will.
Wind of Verdure, See Green Live and Red Blood.
Yellow Gemstone has 100% drop rate from both Drillers and Demon Pungus so I don't see why they're on this either.
Cheese has Cloud Hermits for 100% rate so don't see why they're on too.
Alcohol has a low drop rate.
Cobwebs, Stems, Venom Canines, Immortal Hearts, Bee Stings, all have 100% Drop Rates from easy to kill monsters so why are they on here?
Karvo has a low rate.
Darkness Rune has 100% drop rate, and all you need is a party in Odins.
Royal Jellies aren't 100% so I can see a reason to add them to the wings.
Oridecon Hammer, Star Dust, and Star Crumb all have a low drop rate.
There, every item on the Bee Wings with reasons why they should and shouldn't be on there, most of the ones against certain items have to do with ease of farming and drop rates.
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Seth~ Wrote:Ellie Wrote:Bathories aren't hard by any stretch of the imagination. My gypsy can OHKO them with AV, so I imagine it would take all of about 2DSes. Hardl strenuous.
Are verit, hornet, anacondaq hard - just to mention a few. btw they all drop items listed in the bee wings.
But they drop at a 100% so I don't see why they're in the wings to begin with. Though this is not a part of the discussion we can really move forwards on because we weren't part of the deciding process for Bee Wings, and therefor don't have access to the decision making that went on there. The best you and I can do is just guess, so I consider this particular discussion to have no real ending.
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Seth~ Wrote:Seth~ Wrote:So its flawed to say ohh noes bathory card will spike price wise. It probably will go up slightly and not go up beyond 20m-aka that would be unsustainable. Many ppl agree with the stand point that the price will only slightly fluctuate if wss where to be included in bee wings. Aka bee wings without wss is unfair.
No reply.
Because it's not even an argument for or against adding them to Bee Wings. Even you stating it's unfair isn't an actual argument because this isn't an issue, if the Card Price isn't going to change then this isn't an argument for WSS in Bee Wings or an argument against WSS in Bee Wings. I don't even know why this part of your list of arguments honestly.
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Seth~ Wrote:Seth~ Wrote:Anyways back to what suppream GM-Rahice said. Zeny Sink its questionable ok that is a given. Back to the previous part of the current post items like blue gemstone was removed from a zeny zink formulation. aka zeny zink did not matter to GM's at the time of the blue gemstone insertion.
It was previously argued that wss in bw can be a zeny zink. I do not agree with that. However small zeny zinks like a npc where you can buy blue gemstones does not matter.
I have no idea where you're going with this. Does this entire thing have a point beyond it not mattering? Blue Gems shouldn't be on Bee Wings because you buy the damn things off an NPC, so I don't know why they're on here at all. Again, this is not an argument because you're saying it doesn't matter, because you don't have a part of this reasoning that actually says whether this is for or against WSS.
And you can't use the fact that GM's didn't remember that Blue Gemstones are bought from NPC's as an argument either because I doubt anyone has it set to Blue Gemstones for any real length of time.
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Seth~ Wrote:Seth~ Wrote:I doubt that ppl hunt wss for long unless they brew aka more need for wss from bee wings. If you claim other wise now lets see its called a new invention dg you can afk practically and get the exp to trans. So the requirement for wss maps for exp is baseless.
I missed a reply.
People can hunt Bathory's for the card because it's damn useful, and once again, noting that people hunt an item for use is not an argument for adding that item to the wings. People hunt anything, so should we add every item to Bee Wings? No. And the using of exp for a map of Bathories is not baseless, it just means you can get up a level or a good few percent from the farming.
Congratulations, you've figured out that Dimensional Gorge has a high amount of exp within it. No one has ever noticed that before.
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Seth~ Wrote:Seth~ Wrote:adjusting the /alchemist or /blacksmith or nobility ranking would be unfair. Totally agree with you on that. But why punish wss with it exclusion?
I thought we have established that wss inclusion into bw would have a minor effect especially if the GM's make it so. So effectively the wss in bw would have a minor effect on the /alchemist ranking.
I don't see why you keep using arguments of "this won't change" as a baseline for why things should be added or removed from anything. WSS in Bee Wings won't change that people want a Bathory Card so lets add them! WSS in Bee Wings won't change that people use EXP to level so lets add them! WSS in Bee Wings won't change that certain classes use certain weapons so lets add them.
These aren't really arguments that go for or against adding WSS to Bee Wings so why even bring them up at all?
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Seth~ Wrote:Seth~ Wrote:Really how sad that forgers do not get extra drops from bee wings. However wss is not in mining right? but all(i think) of the forger items is in mining.
Seth~ Wrote:About mining. So you agree the lack of wss elsewhere is bias basically. Seth Score! Why do you want to drag fishing in does it drop items used by skills as consumables. Since this would prove my point. If not I was under the impression that it drops consumables for healing of sp and hp aka a replacement for brewing. Whats the problem there? It was like this before so accepted.
Mining is not really a good place to gain these particular items seeing as how they have a low rate of appearing and you're more likely to get something you should just NPC then you are to get everything you want for your Forging.
And it isn't a replacement for Brewing seeing as how Fish can only be used in a PVM setting and not in WoE or BG, hell even certain fish aren't allowed into ToH. So this once again isn't an argument for or against WSS in Bee Wings. Moving on.
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Seth~ Wrote:I got why its not a good idea, but then please elaborate why blue gemstones, immortal heart, and karvos, is in bee wings. Since this inclusion is clearly balanced and wss exclusion is not balanced.
We can't answer this one as we aren't the ones who added things to Bee Wings, I can argue why they don't need to be in there but I can't read the minds of GM's or force an answer from one. So why are you using an argument that we can't answer without a certain GM showing up? It makes no sense unless you're directly asking the GM's that decided on what goes into the Bee Wings.
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Seth~ Wrote:Seth~ Wrote:I do not get why most extensive choice range for bee wings is not implemented in the first place, but again. You attack wss exclusion on the basis that other items is also excluded aka bias.
I get it would be work to check all this items needed, but I do not get why this anti-bias action was not done before the implementation of bw. But the attempt here is to justify the exclusion of wss in bw, by stating bw is not balanced. Then balance all this mods that allows item generation for various classes.
You keep using the word bias, but I really don't think you know how to use it.
I can give you reasons why items shouldn't be in the Bee Wings and why certain ones should just based on ease of acquirement, drop rates, and which monsters you need to kill.
And yes, Bee Wings are not balanced in the choices of items, we've been through this already and I've answered my reasonings for every item you can gain via Bee Wings earlier in this post.
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Seth~ Wrote:Seth~ Wrote:That said how can this bais nature be justifiably fair considering that wss is used to create a healing item that can be used to heal. Thus in comparison to other items in bee wings is/can be used much more frequently. aka a greater need exists to have wss in bee wings since its more strenuous to farm wss in comparison to others to attain similar goals set out by various skills.
??I believe this was partially answered just do not recall where. Lemme rephrase wss farming is strenuous like any other item in bw before the introduction of bw. However more items is in comparison created.
Given you can get 1 per kill with ease I don't see how this is a strenuous activity at all. I think you're just using the fact that some people farm for more than an hour and the fact that people use them as a reasoning to use the "strenuous argument". Which I don't agree with because this logic can be used for a lot of things.
Everyone who WoEs wants a Feather Beret so we should add Soft Feathers to Bee Wings.
See how easily you can this argument for nearly anything?
People want and use BG items so lets add BG points to Bee Wings.
People want and use Healing Items so lets add Healing Items to Bee Wings.
I can go on and on with this but it won't get anything added to Bee Wings because that's not really an argument. Not everyone uses Bee Stings, not everyone uses Alcohol, not everyone uses Gemstones or Cooking Kits.
This argument doesn't work so please stop using it as one that does.
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Seth~ Wrote:Seth~ Wrote:Yes and by adding wss it would bring bee wings into more of a balance with other items added in bee wings. The general tenancy to increase class specific items required for skills got a major boost from bee wings. In the long term such acts will probably make the server more healthy. Laziness is a product of I wanna be somewhere else that is what the GM should discourage imo.
this I believe was a reply to balancing bee wings or something no argument against this afterwards (i think).
Laziness is not a product of "I want to be somewhere else." Laziness is laziness, laziness is not wanting to put in effort, is not wanting to try, is not wanting to even start.
Balancing the Bee Wings would not fix that, neither would adding WSS. Lazy people will still continue to be complete slackers.
And how would adding WSS bring Bee Wings closer to balance, there are still items on there that are so easy to farm that setting Bee Wings to grab those would be such a waste of time.
And with that, I have answered all of your points. And you want to know what I found out by doing this, that arguing about this is a waste of time because it all comes down to opinion and no one really wins those arguments.
I say you and me agree to disagree and just leave this thread alone for the GM's to ponder over.
Why? Because you'll never concede and I'll never concede. Because if WSS make it in I will still argue that they and other items shouldn't really??be there. If they don't make it in you will still argue that they should be in.
This entire discussion has gone on a merry go round long enough so lets just end it and stop wasting time with these ridiculous posts.
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