ToH Monster: Feedback?

[mahawirasd]

this thread is for the item trial, however, i do feel that for monsters trial there needs to be some re-adjustment or in the end everyone will be compelled to make a hunter...
i know this because i went to TOH with a friend who's main is a hunter and he cruised through TOH easily...

anyway, i do support the notion of having a different map for hunters/bow users because they tend to KS (both in purpose and inadvertently)... does create a bit of a problem because unlike TSS or casters, they seem to have a longer range making them unable to see that someone else is already hitting that particular monster...

and although the first two sets for the items trial are fairly easy, the combos are not, so i would say that items trial as it is now is quite fair.
The assortment of monsters used (high def, high mdef, different elements, etc) IMHO is appropriate. Garm's freeze does suck, but in one sense my complaint to this is that the other mobs don't also cause enough status ailments (or at least they don't proc as much)... -> are they scripted with status skills?


-w-

[Krumb]

Frankly unless the gms specifically pick monsters that give snipers a really hard time, they'll always find a way to beat them.??

High Def Monster. example, Ice titans:??They'd be round 3-5.??So a max of 5 titans means 200k health with 71 def.??A sniper could fa them to death in 2 mins no sweat, with careful use of arrows in the delay gaps.??

In item trial its even worst as Defender (in the case of Turtle General) doesn't stop FA from doing full damage. Unless these item trial monsters have 10k+ health, the snipers will run right over them.

Pneuma monster. Example, Bio High Priest:??Ok, now were getting somewhere. Careful positioning can take care of some problems, or just running like mad and using FA to deal damage works too.

High Spike Damage Monster. Example, Past ToHs:??High damage monsters still have to get through traps/flee.??A line of ankle snares can usually slow down a monster long enough for a sniper to down it. Many of us remember the Incarnation of Morroc (the freaky upside down girl) final trial where 4 people out of 60+ defeated it, two being snipers. A newer example would be Observation, which was pretty brutal for many, yet snipers could lay a long line of traps and easily kill the angel ?girl? before she got too close.

Snipers are on the higher end of pvm, and excel at fighting many different types quickly and efficiently.??Chances are when you throw something at snipers to try and bring them down to the rest of the pack, you're going to be killing most of said pack.

Sorry to rant a bit, but shifting item/monster trial with harder monsters could backfire in a lot of ways, and I'd rather not crush the little guy just because the higher ups think the event is too easy. I really like the idea of using two different maps for item trial, but rather than a ranged only map and everyone else, just splitting it up into two evenish groups appeals more. We're putting too many people in too small an area, but giving people some space would cut down on the kill stealing.

[Sepharius]

Krumb Wrote:Sorry to rant a bit, but shifting item/monster trial with harder monsters could backfire in a lot of ways, and I'd rather not crush the little guy just because the higher ups think the event is too easy.??I really like the idea of using two different maps for item trial, but rather than a ranged only map and everyone else, just splitting it up into two evenish groups appeals more.??We're putting too many people in too small an area, but giving people some space would cut down on the kill stealing.

As a possibly former (have to wait until next ToH to find out) "little guy", ToH is pretty intimidating. No one really tells you that you have to be rebirthed in order do well, and most of us manage to scrape up whatever zeny we can to participate in this overtly glorified event/battle between Light and Dark. A lot of the new people I see/ask seem to think that its supposed to be some sort of "fun" event, not one where they die repeatedly to get 0 points in the monster trial.

As for the 2 maps, splitting them evenly is perhaps the way to go. Putting all the ranged into one map would make KSing even greater, since most ranged classes can't see the guy 7 cells behind the mob, so they end up KSing anyways.

[SpacePope]

well...
#1: Monster:??its FAR^23 too easy for snipers.??why no monsters with pnuema or defender skills???i dont think i've ever seen a decent hunter/sniper not get 50 points here.??rarely if ever monsters are seen with ranged attacks.??and who no monsters with massive def and low mdef.??it seems to me that as a strong melee class (LK) i rarely if ever face a challenge here.??Lastly, i would ask that all miniboss/mvp monster be given the skill auto-guard/parry/safety wall and pnuema/defender??just to make them a bit harder to kill.??and to defend against one shotting them.

#2; Item:??i think this is pretty fair trail as it stands.??perhaps just shuffle around the location of the npcs each time.??the only thing that seems unbalanced to me, is finding the damn npcs since the vets can remember where they are and what they each make.??as most others have said snipers have a massive advantage are are annoying with the killstealing, but there really isnt alot you can do about it.??i would suggest the addition of the skill defender to the monsters skills. it seems to me that if snipers have the immidiate ability to choose an arrow that deals 2x dmg.??and some classes lack a weapon to equip that can deal 2x dmg (aco has no ghost weapon, no holy 2 handed sword etc.)??that a debuff should be imposed on snipers.??especially since they're all (likely) going to be killstealing even if they dont know it as they are attacking from range and cannot necessarily see the other player.

#3 although im sure everyone (including myself, and especially the gms) are going to hate this idea.??i was thinking that there should perhaps be a manditory level to participate in pvp. (i was thinking 95+ - 97+)??although it would extend ToH it would act as a balancer for the vets vs the newer players.??PvP has the unfourtunate downside of having to have a loser. Lets say only myself and Ayu Compete in PvP, she'll beat me 5 times and get 50 points. and i'll have Zero; [so 50 points for 2 people]??but if we both compete in another event.??we'll both have great Success and and get 50 points each; [100 points for 2 people].??so doesnt it make more sense to NOT compete in pvp.

if we imposed a level participation req for pvp it would make ToH alot harder all around and filter less people into item hunt (less kill stealing).

i know this is probably unappealing since #1 i suck at pvp and two lot more work for gms.??but in all seriousness.??this is should be difficult.??

and thats my ideas
-Majin

[poeticwings]

Since the monsters don't change, I would say it's adequate and perhaps rather easy. The last time ToH'd was with a L96 Baby Hunter. The only hard part about Item Trial is killing enough monsters with so much player competition.

Monster Trial was (IS) evil. Moar baby friendly, please?

[Fruityla]

Meh, I'ma address my further thoughts on this thread since I'm not doing much else:

I've always viewed ToH as a more high-end event, so hearing people say "It's too hard!" basically says that people want to be spoonfed instead of trying to actually accomplish something. Which is sad. Very very sad.

Maybe I only say all this because I haven't gotten wings yet, but you know what? Getting a gear that could be considered borderline "hax" (Later generations especially) SHOULD NOT BE EASY. Otherwise...it crosses the line and becomes hax in my eyes >_>

As for the hunter/sniper thing: There's really not a whole lot you can do to stop a class from excelling at what it's basically made to excel at (PvM) XD

Item round is fine, however. I like the new monsters more than the previous ones =p since they're actually capable of killing you and/or screwing you over in general (Garm's freeze) The only problem is the amount of people, but it's still doable if you're quick. I still feel we should be split into two groups though, but not sure how doable that is.

[azurerogue]

I agree with Lin here, which is rare

Sniper was made to own PvM. You cannot stop them. As Krumb put it, any buff you give a monster to hurt Snipers is going to hurt other classes worse.

Defender? What about the poor Gunslingers who already have a hard time with some parts of item and monster trials? What will they do to overcome Defender?

Pneuma? What about all the other ranged skills that don't need a nerf?

As for giving mini bosses special abilities to make them harder to kill...I'm pretty sure the mini bosses in the monster trial are just the standard in-game mini bosses. That means that if you buff them you buff the real versions too, which doesn't seem right.

I'd be fine with ToH being a bit harder. As Lin said, the wing's are basically hax. People should have to work hard to get them.

[GM-Ayu]

So far, seems like it's potentially an easy ToH because I just can't get "hard monsters" for this month's theme in monster trials though XD; I'm still trying to revise the line up to make it slightly more challenging. No time to revise the item trial monsters this month as I have barely time to even host events >_<; I'll certainly look into that though.

I think there's solutions beyond "defender and pneuma" as counters to snipers, really ;p You just need to be bit more creative and complicated in thinking of the series of monster spells to use. However, most of them require the monsters to at least have slightly higher stats than what they have now in item trial ._.;

Again, changing anything beyond the monster's data requires quite an extensive amount of work since the codes for ToH is so interconnected between trials... Making more lanes for monsters will be pretty tough as we'll need to make a new map, remake all the warps and all, so this one is sadly unlikely to happen. Item trial splitting into two, I'm actually against it because that means doubling item trial time and ToH will be half an hour longer. Moving to a bigger map is a possibility, but then it makes your item making NPC that much harder to find because they're even further apart from one another.


Again, my personal goal is that 70-80 should be the new ToH average scores... potentially people call me taking on an elitist approach to favor old players with lv 90+ trans so much (or hunter, heh) but I personally agree (not on behalf of entire GM team) that winning ToH shouldn't be something a newcomer can do right off the bat. It's a trial for heroes, afterall

[azurerogue]

Aren't we all heROes, though?

[Général_Argos]

Lol, long time I ToHed, but I remember monsters being... far too easy.??

edit : OH LOL WAS FOR ITEM TRIAL >__< I tought it was for monster. Well. Both of them were too easy :/ What made my lk not get full points from item trial always was the time limit (5 more mins and it would be another story ._.')